[rbforster]

I have a general question for those of you who play a version of drury that shows (or might include) hands with only 3 card support. If you only have a 5-3 fit, it might be worth looking for the 4-4 fit in the other major. Do you still check for this, or do you just give up and agree to playing in the opener's suit?

I suppose you could play

P-1♠-2♣*-2♥ natural 4+ and a real opener?
P-1♥-2♣*-2♠ natural 4+ and extras

Then again, I've heard some people like the 2♥ rebid (after 1♠ opened) to be natural and sub-minimum. It seems pretty clear 2♥ wants to be natural, but it's not clear to me what strength. Even if it shows a "real" opener, is it forcing opposite a minimum drury response who holds 3♠/4+♥?

Another problem with this situation is how these bids to show the other major interact with your normal game tries. I like playing 2-way (Kokish) game tries, where

P-1♥-2♣*-2♠ would ask for the cheapest help suit from responder
P-1♥-2♣*-2NT/3♣/3♦ show opener's shortness in ♠/♣/♦

P-1♠-2♣*-2NT would ask for the cheapest help suit from responder
P-1♠-2♣*-3♣/3♦/3♥ show opener's shortness in ♣/♦/♥

Is there any way to keep these nice game tries and still check for your 4-4 fit in the other major?

[pclayton]

Yes this is how I play it. A new suit (except 2♦) after 2♣ shows length, which can help get you to a 4-4 in the other major.

To make a game try, start with 2♦.

[rbforster]

pclayton, on Apr 30 2007, 10:15 AM, said:

To make a game try, start with 2♦.

I had a feeling that might be the case. Replacing the game try asking bid (2M+1) with 2♦ seems reasonable. Unfortunately, I'm thinking about a system where 2♦ would be the drury response .

[mikeh]

Not sure if this helps:

2♣ 3 card drury; 2♦ 4 card drury...

After 2♣, 2♦ by opener is either a 4 card major opening or about to make a short suit game try.

Over 1♠ 2♣ 2♦ responder is encouraged to bid a natural 2♥, which may allow opener to back into the ♥ fit.

After 1♠ 2♣, 2♥ is natural, and forcing one round ( the 2♣ call commits us to 2♠... and, while I open 4 card majors in 3rd and 4th seat, with 4=4, if I open a major, it will be usually be 1♥). So this allows opener to show his second suit.

After 1♠ 2♣, 2N is natural and forcing, promising a hand too good for a 1N opening: if 15-17 1N, then 2N shows 17-19.... I don't open 1N with normal 5332s with 17 and a 5 card suit...I upgrade these hands.

After 1♠ 2♣, new suits at the 3-level are help suits.

After 1♥ 2♣, we can back into ♠s if opener bids 2♠: ostensibly a help suit try, but responder, if accepting the try with 4 decent ♠s, raises to 3♠ rather than jumping to 4♥s.

I appreciate that this is a different scheme than the one you currently use, but it does allow for finding the 4=4 other major fit any time game is on.

[pclayton]

Rob F, on Apr 30 2007, 07:42 AM, said:

pclayton, on Apr 30 2007, 10:15 AM, said:

To make a game try, start with 2♦.

I had a feeling that might be the case. Replacing the game try asking bid (2M+1) with 2♦ seems reasonable. Unfortunately, I'm thinking about a system where 2♦ would be the drury response .

2♦ isn't a game try per se; it just shows a full opener.

The way I play, responder shows shortness over 2♣ and bids 2 major without shortness.

[Elianna]

Rob F, on Apr 30 2007, 07:42 AM, said:

Unfortunately, I'm thinking about a system where 2♦ would be the drury response .

Well, this is the drury that Adam and I play. In fact, it's the drury I play with everyone that I play drury with.

I am not sure of our followups, but I'm sure that I will be told later on what our agreements are.

[jdonn]

Rob F, on Apr 30 2007, 04:24 AM, said:

I suppose you could play

P-1♠-2♣*-2♥ natural 4+ and a real opener?

Then again, I've heard some people like the 2♥ rebid (after 1♠ opened) to be natural and sub-minimum.

That is definitely how I like to play it, though most disagree with me. The last partner I told it to said why don't I just open 1♥ if I'm a bit light with 4-4 in the majors. There are two reasons I prefer not to do that. One is partner with 4-3 in the majors would have a guess to bid 1♠ (which I might pass with 3-5) or bid drury and play in hearts. But the other more important reason is, as usual, I don't want system to dictate when I can and can not bid what I want to bid. And it is clear to me I would much rather open AJTx Kxxx xxx Kx 1♠ than 1♥.

I don't see why hands that would have bid 2♥ as forcing couldn't just bid 2♦ instead. Partner is even free to bid 2♥ over that if he wants to.

[rbforster]

Elianna, on Apr 30 2007, 07:18 PM, said:

[I am not sure of our followups, but I'm sure that I will be told later on what our agreements are. 

I look forward to hearing once you figuring out your agreements

[skjaeran]

jdonn, on May 1 2007, 02:23 AM, said:

Rob F, on Apr 30 2007, 04:24 AM, said:

I suppose you could play

P-1♠-2♣*-2♥ natural 4+ and a real opener?

Then again, I've heard some people like the 2♥ rebid (after 1♠ opened) to be natural and sub-minimum.

That is definitely how I like to play it, though most disagree with me. The last partner I told it to said why don't I just open 1♥ if I'm a bit light with 4-4 in the majors. There are two reasons I prefer not to do that. One is partner with 4-3 in the majors would have a guess to bid 1♠ (which I might pass with 3-5) or bid drury and play in hearts. But the other more important reason is, as usual, I don't want system to dictate when I can and can not bid what I want to bid. And it is clear to me I would much rather open AJTx Kxxx xxx Kx 1♠ than 1♥.

I don't see why hands that would have bid 2♥ as forcing couldn't just bid 2♦ instead. Partner is even free to bid 2♥ over that if he wants to.

With my regular partner we play 2-way Drury, but upside down, compared to mikeh's method. 2♣=4, 2♦=3.

Like Josh, I'd open 1♠ with AJTx-Kxxx-xxx-Kx. We've defined 2♥ as natural F1 over both 2♣ and 2♦. I can see why we probably should switch 2♣ and 2♦ to be able to find a 44 ♥ fit when responder's got 3c ♠ support and stop at the 2-level.

[rbforster]

jdonn, on Apr 30 2007, 07:23 PM, said:

it is clear to me I would much rather open AJTx Kxxx xxx Kx 1♠ than 1♥.

It's even more clear you want a NF 2♥ response when you want to open AQJ Kxxx Jxxx xx 1♠ rather than 1♥ Kinda like those support doubles keeping you out of the 3-3 major fits.

[awm]

As far as I know, Elianna and my agreements are:

2♦ = only drury; 2♣ would be natural, this shows 3+ card support

Opener's rebids are:

2 of original major = no game interest opposite limit raise; minimum or sub-minimum
2♥ (if original major was spades) = natural, forcing one round
anything above 2M = normal game try (or better) something good but not always GF

While it's possible to play 1♠-2♦-2♥ as NF, this seems to me to be aiming for a very narrow target. Basically we want to be able to play 2♥ when partner has exactly 3♠ and 4♥. But on such a hand we have a double fit which usually gives us at least 3-level safety if not game interest. And even if opener's hand is so trashy that 3♥ is risky, opponents usually have a good minor suit fit somewhere and may well decide to balance (or might've bid earlier to begin with). On the other hand, it is very nice to be able to uncover a double fit in case opener has (for example) a light 5-5 majors hand.

[rbforster]

awm, on May 1 2007, 11:56 AM, said:

2♥ (if original major was spades) = natural, forcing one round

If I wanted to get fancy, I might play this as either (natural and invitational+) or (any very weak invite, may not have hearts). Then responder can just bid 2♠ to decline the mild invite, over which natural game tries may continue and the heart suit will be known. Or with a hand that is interested in game opposite a mild invite, make a natural game try. I'll have to work out the continuations.

Quote

While it's possible to play 1♠-2♦-2♥ as NF, this seems to me to be aiming for a very narrow target. Basically we want to be able to play 2♥ when partner has exactly 3♠ and 4♥.

Can't responder have 3♠5♥ (or even 6 bad hearts)? Surely you would bid Drury rather than risk a NF 2/1 2♥ call as a PH? So you could, in principle, be burying a 9+ fit in favor of a 7 card one.

Still I agree it's a narrow target to play the 2♥ rebid as weak and NF, and it's more important to have methods to look for hearts after a 1♠ opening than to look for spades after a 1♥ opening (since 1♠ could have 5 or even 6 hearts, while 1♥ will not be 5-5 when a sound opener, usually 5+♥4♠ and only rarely 6♥5♠).

[helene_t]

What about
2♣: 3-card support, 4+ other major, o
2♦: 4-card support, or 3-card support w/o other major

[kenberg]

My preference:

2C is reverse drury with 3+ cards, leaving 2D over 1M as a natural non-forcing bid (every convention has a cost, I think the marginal improvement you get from playing 2-way is not worth the price).

If I open 1H with five hearts and four spades, and if partner elects to bid 2C with three hearts and four spades, we lose the spades.

If I open 1S with five spades and four hearts, and partner bids 2C withe three spades and four hearts, we do not lose the hearts. I bid them, whether or not I have a full opener. If partner does not have four hearts he will return to spades. Fine. If he does have four hearts we have a double fit and even if I opened light (I try to keep my light openings in the realm of sanity) we should be safe at the three level and probably good for four. Even in the unlikely event that we cannot take more than eight tricks in our double fit, the opponents will (that's will, not may) hold sixteen cards in the minors and, since the cards must lie badly for us and well for them for eight tricks to be our limit, they will be able to play 3m. Actually they have probably already entered the auction, so this case seldom arises in practice.

Among other things, there is not a lot to memorize (and forget) playing this way.

[Elianna]

kenberg, on May 3 2007, 04:46 AM, said:

2C is reverse drury with 3+ cards, leaving 2D over 1M as a natural non-forcing bid (every convention has a cost, I think the marginal improvement you get from playing 2-way is not worth the price).

So the reason I decided to play that 2C is natural, 2D is reverse drury is that you're slightly more likely to have a hand that would like to bid clubs naturally (because in our system, 2D is a weak two).

Some of the drawbacks are that it's harder to open in 3rd on complete junk (loss of the 2D response over 2C to announce that). But I don't mind this loss.