[jdonn]

I blame north for employing this strategy. I hate bids that could show either of two different types of hands, I think this sort of thing happens in unforeseen ways all the time and the theoreticians just don't give the possibility enough credit.

[xcurt]

For the actual result, N gets almost all the blame for leaping all the way to 7H. Was 5S supposed to promise the CA, enough trumps to avoid losing a trick to East's potential Jxxx or Qxx, and parking places for the DQ and the two losing spades? That's a huge parlay even without factoring in that North knows South bid 5S thinking North was coming with at least one minor.

I also don't like North's strategy because even if it comes off how is South supposed to know what he needs to raise? Sx could be bad because East may be void, the CK may be useless unless partner has an entry, etc.

On the other hand I don't like starting with double hoping to bid 5H because that might well make if west has QJT98xx, --, x, 5solid.

I guess in practice I would bid a simple 5H on the N hand, which I think is a mild underbid. That probably leads to 5H making unless South is a hero and bids 6D.

[pclayton]

North gets the charge. When South presses to slam with 5♠ (showing 1st round control), North should be aware that 4N is usually two places to play, and not the heavy hand with hearts, and as a result, South very likely has a distributional hand with both minors, expecting to hit one.

If North bids 6♥, North will send the right picture about his hand type. South will be temporarily perplexed, but will read the situation and pass.

[655321]

Add me to the blame North for everything faction. I also don't like the basic approach (pretend to hold a 2-suiter then spring out of the bushes with my real hand later), and also don't like the 7♥ bid.

I don't mind double (takeout) followed by 5♥ if it doesn't go all pass. Even a jump to 6♥ seems OK to me.

xcurt, on Jun 25 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

On the other hand I don't like starting with double hoping to bid 5H because that might well make if west has QJT98xx, --, x, 5solid.

Hmm. But 5♥X won't make if east has --,JT9876,KJx,AKQJ. Life is tough!

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Jun 26 2008, 03:23 PM, said:

I blame north for employing this strategy. I hate bids that could show either of two different types of hands, I think this sort of thing happens in unforeseen ways all the time and the theoreticians just don't give the possibility enough credit.

And the effect is much stronger when there is little room to resolve the ambiguity.

[gnasher]

Bidding 4NT hoping to be able to convert clubs to hearts is OK if you're happy to revert to hearts regardless of what level partner drives you to. It works fine after, for example, (4♠) dbl (pass).

However, I think this tactic should be employed only when there isn't a reasonable alternative. Here, with a strong 1-suiter in hearts, you can make a takeout double and follow with 5♥. North should do that. I don't understand the suggestion that this might lead to defending 4♠x.

With the actual auction, North-South would have survived if North hadn't panicked over 5♠. If 4NT includes this hand-type, then that's what 6♥ shows. In fact, I can't think of any other sensible meaning for it.

6♥ is a good contract, even given the opening. On a club lead it needs hearts 3-3 or diamonds coming in. On a non-club lead it's much better than that.

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Jun 26 2008, 08:47 AM, said:

I suppose you meant with this particular strong 1 suiter in hearts you can X (since you have such good spades that you're not worried if partner passes your X). Obviously most such very strong 1 suiters couldn't risk a X.

Yes, that's what I should have said (even if it's not what I meant at the time ). In fact, with this hand I think it impossible that partner will pass it out.

You're right that a strong one-suiter with short spades poses more of a problem. With that hand-type, following the 4NT-then-5H route is more likely to be workable - if partner gets excited, at least his high cards will be opposite your side suits rather than your side-suit shortages. It would be nice to have an agreement about this before springing it upon partner, but I suppose it can't mean anything else.

Quote

Does X then 5H show specifically a hand too strong to overcall 5H though? I really wouldn't have thought so.

Perhaps it depends on what partner does. If he bids 4NT, presumably 5♥ shows this hand. Are you saying that 5♥ over 5m might be a 6-4 where you planned to pass the other minor?

[gnasher]

So:
- 4NT gains over double when partner has longer clubs than diamonds, or when partner was going to pass out a takeout double.
- Double gains over 4NT when partner has 5 diamonds and 4 clubs, or has 4 hearts and a 4+ card minor.

The hands where double gains seem less frequent, so I think you've persuaded me that 4NT is the right bid, both with the actual hand and with a strong heart one-suiter in general.

[nige1]

Jlall, on Jun 25 2008, 10:07 PM, said:

Dealer: ????? Vul: Both Scoring: Unknown

♠ AKxx ♥ AKQxxx ♦ AQ ♣ x ♠   ♥ x ♦ KTxxxxx ♣ AT9xx

4S opener by west. NORTH (the heart hand) overcalled 4N. South bid 5S. North bid 7H. North was going to bid 4N followed by 5H to show a strong 5H bid. NS are experts with no agreements. Assign the blame, and how do you think the auction should go?

Just to be different: North 30% South 70%. IMO...

• Over 4N, South should bid 5N.
  
• over 7♥ South should bid 7N.

[nige1]

Jlall, on Jun 25 2008, 10:07 PM, said:

Dealer: ????? Vul: Both Scoring: Unknown

♠ AKxx ♥ AKQxxx ♦ AQ ♣ x ♠   ♥ x ♦ KTxxxxx ♣ AT9xx

4S opener by west. NORTH (the heart hand) overcalled 4N. South bid 5S. North bid 7H. North was going to bid 4N followed by 5H to show a strong 5H bid. NS are experts with no agreements. Assign the blame, and how do you think the auction should go?

Just to be different: North 30% South 70%. IMO...

• Over 4N, South should bid 5N.
  
• over 7♥, South should bid 7N.

[ArtK78]

A 7NT bid on the South hand over 7♥ is the kind of bid that results in 7NTx down 8 or more tricks. North has a singleton or void in spades along with 10 solid hearts.

Really, the only excuse for bidding 7NT on the South cards is that he sees North's hand.

[kenrexford]

Jlall, on Jun 26 2008, 02:53 PM, said:

I was south on this hand FWIW. I thought partner should just bid 6H over 5S.

I think you are right about what North should do. If partner was expecting that 5♥ after you bid 5minor shows this hand, then 6♥ after 5♠ shows this hand.

That said, I think you have to take a charge here as well. Although you were placed in a ridiculous situation, how can passing be right? What hand must partner have where he bids the grand without the spade Ace? You know that something is screwy here, but that huge diamond suit and the small stiff heart suggests that 7NT might result in the same score but might not, as in this very situation.

Granted, a club lead kills your hope of diamonds being anything but 4-0, but you still make if diamonds are 2-2 or if the Jack is stiff.

[kenrexford]

I suppose that's possible, even if it seems bizarre. But, we know that the auction is bizarre, so I guess you did have a problem.

[hrothgar]

Hmmm

This brings back memories of an earlier thread

http://forums.bridge...topic=25330&hl=

I advocated a similar bidding plan (Use a bid that ostensibly shows a two suited patter with a single suited hand). Since my earlier scheme couldn't possible be flawed I'll need to blame the card gods who just happened to deal a hand which exposed a kink in the system.

On a more serious note: I think that North needs to accept the charge. If you decide to operate and it goes badly you accept responsibility and hope that partner is gracious. For what its owrth, I think that South was a little aggressive, but that strike me as nit picking.