[Flame]

Hi csdenmark
my point is very simple, the best way to solve a problem is first to define it as accurate as you can, you cant try to solve a problem when its not defined, imo you are trying to solve more then the simple problem of automatic bailing out of MBC, maybe you are trying to solve rudness as general.
So lets define the problem, someone get into your table and you dont know that he is about to play a tournament, right ? it doesnt matter why he does it, only thing matter is that you should know about his coming tournament, and this can be done automaticly.

[mr1303]

In all honesty, the percentage of players who leave a table in the MBC I think, to be pretty low. Lots more leave because they don't think their partner is up to scratch, because they don't like their opps, because their regular partner has just come online, because they're just bored of playing bridge. Lots of reasons. I don't think that the problem of people leaving the main bridge club to play in tournaments is that large a problem.

Seeing as the issue seems to be contested, maybe a vote might be a fair way to decide what the solution should be.

[mpefritz]

The problem at hand is that of a few players who do not announce they are going to be sucked away. As I mentioned elsewhere with a suggestion of a Scarlet S for someone playing in MBC who is a sub (and maybe table hosts can ban "SUBS"), perhaps the same can be done to mark someone with a T and the time of the tournament placed into their profile.

This might take too much programming.

You can always send a message from a tourney to people you were playing with to apologize if you forgot to tell them, but cannot receive a mesage back.

Uday's original suggestion is flawed as many players sit at a table with their pard to play for a bit before a toruney. They can explain to opps what the plan is. If the opps stay, then they are informed. if the opps don't like it they can leave.

Again a T or S marking with approx start time can inform other players of what is going on -- provided not too many people feel their privacy will be violated by such a marking.

Yes, it is rude to be join a table and not tell the opps/pard what is going on. That should not happen on general principles, but the previously proposed solutions seem to harm a larger number than it would benefit.

fritz

[JRG]

I haven't run into much of a problem this way, though I do agree that Claus's issue is legitimate.

I don't play in tournaments, but in the main bridge club. I generally only play "set games". That is, I know the players -- both my partner and the pair we are going to play against. I feel I am in agreement with Claus, because the games I get involved in generally last for 1 to 2 hours (or more). I do not want someone sitting for just 3 or 4 hands.

Perhaps I have been fortunate, but quite often I have asked a player I know (always someone I have marked as a "friend"), and that person has replied, "Sorry, I'd like to play but I am about to play in a tournament. Some other time perhaps." (or a similar reply).

The people I have marked as friends appear, generally, to kibitz rather than play when the tournament they are signed up for is approaching. Twiddling their thumbs does not appear to be a problem for them.

The bottom line is that I agree with Claus -- people that sit for two or three hands are being rude.

[hallway]

I encourage my members to go online 30 minutes before they are due to play in a tournament and practice together. Open a table and be playing for those 30 minutes before the start.

All members are encouraged to have the View setting so that when they enter the BIL Lobby they can read the Table Description heading.

Those that are practicing for a Tourney start their tables and show in the Table Description - Waiting for Tourney / Tourney practice or whatever . Anyone joining them then knows they are going to get zapped. Those that join are generally those that are playing in the same tourney so they all disappear.

But then in the BIL they are spoiled because every member receives a five- ten minute warning so even if the Host forgot the Table description and was even so remiss as to forget to mention their imminent departure we will have reminded them !

And yes, before you ask some do it and some don't !! I will persevere !

That's a darn sight preferable than having them being delayed while logging in - because they don't want to be hanging around waiting and leave it a tad late or wander off from their computers and one has nothing happening at their table !! - so the poor TD is left tearing one's hair out finding subs.

I LIKE to see them all playing happily at the tables.

[csdenmark]

Uday's solution is excellent because the offender will be penalized this time and not the victim. I think that is fair so.

- If a person forget his tourney appointment - he will miss the tourney and so his partner

- If a person leaves table in the middle of a game - he will be penalized for violation BBO rules for decent behavior

- The player will be forced to think himself taken notice of his own appointments - a very healthy way

Udays way will be very helpful for a more responsible behavior by all!

You can always send a message from a tourney to people you were playing with to apologize if you forgot to tell them, but cannot receive a mesage back. Occasionally I receive such - I notice in that way I have been playing with people who are conscious of their misbehavior. The offence is though still the same.

For 'Flame' - yes I have several kinds of rudeness in mind. I would like to see if people have less than 1 hour for play - they dont sit at my table. I would like to see if they have less than 1/2 hour software would aut. prevent them to sit. - Udays solution looks right to me and more simple for software to handle I think.

[csdenmark]

Reading Maureen's post I came to think of a solution which might be good to even those I have no intensions else to help.

As I remember Uday has told in Forum earlier it is so that players at a table in the public club 'Total Points Club' is not sucked into tourney.

How about creating a public club 'Tourney waiting Club' from which players will be sucked into tourneys. Then those to be sucked will be defined as not playing or playing in 'Tourney waiting Club' - and nobody else.

Those playing there will be playing while waiting and for no other reason. No offence by sucking can occur here.

[hotShot]

JRG, on Apr 20 2004, 04:57 AM, said:

...
I get involved in generally last for 1 to 2 hours (or more). I do not want someone sitting for just 3 or 4 hands.

....
The bottom line is that I agree with Claus -- people that sit for two or three hands are being rude.

So what you are saying is:

There are a rude people that join tables knowing that there tourney is going to start "any" minute.

As you noticed yourself, most of your friends and i assume it's most of the BBO-players won't act like that.

I have been asked to fill fill in for 3 boards by frieds lots of times, who wanted to play a little more before they leave. If they agree why should i not play with them untiil my tourney starts?

State that you don't want players playing just for a few boards in the table description.
If a player ignores that, report that rudeness!

[csdenmark]

Hotshot please take a look into Main Club when some of the tourneys starts up. Crashes for 15-20 tables is quite normal.

Right most don't do so - but enough. It is a really big problem. Those acting in a correct way will not be affected by the solution proposed by Uday.

Stating something in table description - it is not read or simply ignored. Has been discussed very often.

Reporting rudeness from Main Club - FG would soon need more staff to handle that.

[spwdo]

hi,


i dont see why playing less then half an our woud be a problem if all agree , disappaerence of lots of tables when tourney starts has maybe something to do with most of these tables knowing a tourney is coming up.


disallowing entering tourneys for players when they are in main playing will cause huge problems for tds knowing #of entrance.

Possible solution again is bann(timeperiod from playing main/tourneys) players when they dont finisch so so % of events they started including leaving in main in the middle of hand

For me is not a big issue, yet for some who are frustrated by this , maybe mark all thos who do this as enemies and never play with them again.


happend to me ones or twice that someone dint mention he was going to play in a tourney so guess im lucky

what bothers me more is players sitting down, bidding ,dummy unfolds, they see its unmakeble and they leave to sit down at another table seconds later.

But maybe/probaly all barred players from tourneys(too high %of unfinisched events) now sit down in main to do the same thing causing the same grieve.

[hotShot]

I agree that the behaviour you describe is rude.

Quote

Hotshot please take a look into Main Club when some of the tourneys starts up. Crashes for 15-20 tables is quite normal.

Right most don't do so - but enough. It is a really big problem

But how many of these tables did not know this was going to happen?

Making everybody leave his/her table 5 minutes earlier will not change that.

Quote

Those acting in a correct way will not be affected by the solution proposed by Uday.

Uday’s suggestion is like carrying a ladder, no harm done at the front end …..

The first victims of Uday’s proposal are players who joined the tourney not knowing that they picked a “rude” partner. Suddenly just before the tourney starts they are unregistered with no chance to get back in. Missing a tourney like that, people will get tired of using the “partnership desk”.

Players will no longer volunteer to be a sub, if that means they cannot do anything but hoping to be invited. This leads to tables to crash in tourneys and probably tourneys to crash.


Being a TD is always limited fun. At BBO it is even less fun, bad connections, to little time to react within the round and “rude” behaviour of players. If players are no longer allowed to play while they are waiting for the tourney to start, they will log on and do something else.
The result will be, that in the first round a lot of players will not be ready to play.
At that stage players could not register as sub, so you’re options are very limited and if you sub, established partnerships will be ripped apart.

In the end we all will suffer.
I refuse any attempt to make the overwhelming majority of players suffer for the rudeness of a few.

If one of the big tourneys with 200 tables starts 800 people (+TD’s) are involved.
Your 20 crashed tables had perhaps 20 to 40 people that did not get off on time.
Let's assume all did not inform their table, it’s 2.5-5% off the players.

[csdenmark]

You are just missing the point Marc. Playing 15-30 minutes makes no sense. Those are not insterested in what we are doing - they have just nothing else to do with their time. They are waiting for something more attractive to them than playing with me. I want those to stay away.

I really think creating an alternative way for play for those with no interest might be a good solution. Not only for those waiting for something else but also for those many who think bothering me for 15 minutes in their coffee break is acceptable - and it is NOT.

It is not whether they inform or not - as I now see Hotshot is writing. But most dont inform. But really information or not makes not much of a difference.

Quote

f one of the big tourneys with 200 tables starts 800 people (+TD’s) are involved.
Your 20 crashed tables had perhaps 20 to 40 people that did not get off on time.
Let's assume all did not inform their table, it’s 2.5-5% off the players.

Meaning 20-40 persons to be reported each day. Please remember those left at the table are all innocent but suffering those violating 'rules for these sites.'

NO TD's must be creative and come up with solutions not harming innocent people. Then lets talk about your proposals. Hotshot you are quite right - in future you will need other ways to find substitutes.

[mpefritz]

Claus,

Add a disclaimer to YOUR table description: "If you are going to be taken away to a tournament, please do not join my table. If you do, you will be reported to abuse (at) bb.com"

Then when someone sits down, welcome them , and give them the warning from you. If they stay, great. If they leave right away, you are unharmed. If they get sucked away, report them.

This is not that hard.

Other players who have the same problem sas you will see your descriptions, and they may pick up on it, too. No software changes needed.

Again, I am not condoning the acts of the people who sit for a few boards and DO NOT announce that they will be sucked away. That is rude, and should not be tolerated. Maybe a pop-up reminder to players once they sign up for a tourney is all that is needed.

If the host does not want players for a few boards when the players announce that they will be sucked away, then the host can ask them to leave. No harm done.

fritz

[csdenmark]

Quote

Maybe a pop-up reminder to players once they sign up for a tourney is all that is needed.

Maybe you have a simple solution here Fritz - please come up with some more.

[spwdo]

csdenmark, on Apr 20 2004, 11:14 PM, said:

You are just missing the point Marc. Playing 15-30 minutes makes no sense. Those are not insterested in what we are doing -

hi,

i dont get the problem with this claus, why is it wrong to play 2/3 baords to post cc and agree on defence and so on prior to a tourney with a new prtner when u announce that.

I seen nobody complaining about this, same as there are tourneys for four baords, those wanting to play that if they like it let them, i see no harm in diffrence of interest, u want to sit down for 2 hours with same opps, so why not create a teammatch, if i ask around in the lobby for teammatch i got a douzen players every time to sign up so why not do that and chose the # of baords, dont ask of all that they have same interest as you claus or that some "care" for what u do.

Dont ask to overload tds and other innocent players with a bourdon because u personnally dont compete in tourneys, when i play with juniors, they come and go for 2/3/4 baords and all are honest and say i need do this in 15/i only can stay 4 baords.

All i think we need to do is find a way for the server to see when a player is swept into a tourney(when he was sitting down in main) and let it count as intentionel disconnect and barr them if it happens too often

For the subs(looking at other ways u say), u are simply saying no tourneys anymore on bbo.IF u want that maybe it is time u suggest to bann all players with a poor connection to start with, then on to the next thing causing any annoience

If we can only use free ones not doing anything , just waiting in the lobby to get in atourney somewhere sometime

I feel u are on a witchunt claus against tourneys without looking to any fact/problem/solution besides your thinking on the matter wich i feel is narrowminded


there is a saying for this: Wanting a mile, yet not willing to give an inch

marc

[csdenmark]

Marc I do no witchhunting. For me everybody is very welcome to whatever they want unless one thing.

If they want to play at my table it is because they want to play with me. If they want to play with others or in other set ups - then please stay away from my tables.

Rudeness is not accepted - but accepted until now in a limited way. Now it looks like this lock can be tightened - and I am very happy with that.

[csdenmark]

Half a year with Tournament set-up. What's the record?

I think nobody from the beginning would be able to imagine the big number of tournaments to come. 10 pairs a day and 20-30 teams. A very large number. Tournaments are in bridge normally assumed synonoumus with serious bridge.

We now have the experience that tournaments, at least in online bridge, is more like an alternative set-up than guaranteeing seriousity. Therefore it is right to say time now has come no longer to tolerate the damage tournaments causes for non-participiants.

- table crashes due to sucking into tourneys of players and substitutes
- no stability in scoring due to constant need for clearing scores
- constantly newcomers with the need to apply to new partners and languages
- less stability due to tourney-players sometimes think MBC is just a childrengarden they are allowed to jump into when they have nothing else to do

The message from Uday is that simple: Time has come to apply to same standards for all - regardless of set-up.

[Mirjam_3]

another suggestion to td's in general (and no it is not personal and not to marc since he never does that):

STOP postponing tournaments... plse.

Yesterday again i registered in a tournament with 7 minutes left to go.

Suddingly it was changed into 17 minutes... without any warning in lobby and without a td visible online. If it wd have been an invididual i wd have withdrawn without any hesitation, but here i was with partner so i left it, looking at the tournament for 17 minutes... before it started... If i had known this in advance i wd have planned my time differently.
I think postponing is rude to the waiting players and it increases playing in main waiting for the tournaments to start...

As td i get often a request to postpone and i never honour it... i cannot postpone for one player.. letting f.e. 180 other players wait...

[mpefritz]

Claus,

Let me repeat.

YOU can make an announcement at your table that jumpers/tournament disconnects are not acceptable.

Uday can add a statement to the RULES of this site that tournament leaving is unacceptable IF the table host has not been notified/accepted that you will be leaving.

YOUR personal desire to see this activity stop, can be spread to others by YOU placing a warning at YOUR table that players who jump/get sucked out are not accepted at your table and that activity will be reported to abuse. Other hosts who find this to be a problem would then follow your lead by also placing such a restriction at their table by copying your table description.

The hosts who did not worry about such problems could contine to host as they wish (allowing jumpers/allowing tournament suckers)

Then any player who does this activity at your table or any other where the host felt this would be the height of rudeness could and should be reported to abuse.

How can this be assisted by changes in the software -- in addition to your own changes which are available in the software already?

1) Make it clear in the Rules of this site that such activities are unacceptable WITHOUT properly informing the table host/other players of your plan to be joining a tournament soon.

2) Perhaps tag players with an "S" or a "T" so hosts who require permission to sit can readily assess whether a player might be sucked away before the host gives permission. Similarly tag players who are hosts so opps can know.

3) Give a pop-up reminder to players who sign up as a sub or for a tournament that playing in the MBC or elsewhere while waiting to play requires that they tell the players at the table what their plan is.

4) Give a pop-up to the table host in the MBC asking them if a sucked away player properly informed them that they were going to leave. If not, an automatic message gets sent to the server that player X broke the rules. Note this allows opps who stay and become the host to respond also.

5) The player who got sucked away without telling the host (according to the host) gets a message reminding them again of the rules of the site. If they continue to act that way, they will be barred from playing blah blah blah.

Compile info and if this seems to be a real problem, ban players under a similar algorithm to tourney barring. Note that a host might incorrectly tag a player as not announcing..but that can be addressed after some initial data gets compiled.

Maybe this is a real problem that the BBO community cares about and maybe it is one that it doesn't.

fritz

[csdenmark]

Fritz your suggestions looks excellent to me. Fair and and completely acc. to rules.

Quote

2) Perhaps tag players with an "S" or a "T" so hosts who require permission to sit can readily assess whether a player might be sucked away before the host gives permission. Similarly tag players who are hosts so opps can know.

To me it looks like this will be a 'must'.

If your proposal is going to be implemented we all will clap in our hands I think!