[Stephen Tu]

I'd like to hear from players in Europe, Australia, and elsewhere, where I understand the use of Duplimated boards is fairly routine for Swiss team events. Our district finally has some dealing machines, but still isn't using them for most Swiss events, only uses it for the final day of the one big two-day Swiss held each summer. I'd like to see them used more often, but was told by our district president that the current cost & # of boards needed made this infeasible at this time.

I'd like to know how this is handled elsewhere. Some questions:

• are all the boards made before the event, or is someone paid to make them during? Who does the duplicating, a 3rd party, director, caddies? Does anyone know the costs involved?
  
• how many matches share a set of boards? 7-8 board rounds. Shared by 4 tables? 6? Is there any concern about security, people overhearing remarks from neighboring tables? How are the tables typically arranged?
  
• Are boards just passed on to the next table as in pairs or are they just put in a stack in the middle of a group of tables? How is it handled when a table is slow and causing another table to wait for boards?
  
• How many teams attend the typical weekend ~monthly tournament in your area?

[Cascade]

For bigger events i think all boards are made before the event. I have played in smaller events where the director or some other individual has made boards during the event.

2 boards per table is plenty. Some events might run with more but at a pinch with some good caddies you can probably get by with fewer boards. So for a 20 team event playing 8 board matches (we actually usually play 12 board matches in New Zealand). You would need 5 sets of boards.

There are two options for the table layout.

1. Just arrange the tables as you would for a Mitchell pairs movement and put all of the boards out in sequence two per table when one set finishes start a new set. The boards then just rotate around the entire group. If you are confident in your duplication then this should work fine. Occasionally I have seen some fouled boards so that teammates did not play the same board(s).

2. In some bigger events the tables are arranged in groups. Groups of six tables (3 matches) works for 12 board matches. Groups of four tables would work for 8 board matches. Rotate the boards among your group and then each match would physically play the same set of boards.

The tables are arranged

A B C
C A B

typically for a group of six.

In theory the proximity of the tables could cause a security problem in practice it does not seem to be an issue. The problem would be slightly greater for groups of four.

Boards are rotated around the room or within a group as per the set-up. If the next board is not ready then you call for a caddy (or director in smaller events) and a board will be found for you. Typically if the room is set up so you play the boards in order 1,2,3, ... 12 then if you start with one and don't have a board the caddy will try and find you board 12 which is then replaced in rotation. If the duplication is sound then you can find this board from another section. If you start at board 5 say then when you need a board the caddy will look for board 4 (best). Occasionally when there is more than one slow table you end up playing the boards in some strange seemingly random order with correspondingly more caddy calls as the match nears its end.

We usually have something between 15-30 tables in local tournaments.

Similar organization though is used in much bigger tournaments at the NZ Nationals (around 100 teams) and large Australian tournaments (200+ teams).

[Gerben42]

The German situation:

In my local club we have a Duplimate. 1 or 2 volunteers make the boards for the week, once a week. This takes them about 90 minutes.

For the German Teams and German Mixed Teams (both Swiss), boards are duplicated beforehand, we also have about 1 set for 4 tables, but instead of making 4-table groups we proviede the boards incrementally. Boards progress downward, normally table N-> N-1 -> N-2 -> etc. This makes it tougher for players to know what boards are played where and when.

Quote

are all the boards made before the event, or is someone paid to make them during? Who does the duplicating, a 3rd party, director, caddies? Does anyone know the costs involved?

The boards are duplicated by a 3rd party and sent by mail. Costs are something like €1 per board all inclusive. At the biggest tourneys, boards are sometimes made at the venue.

Quote

Are boards just passed on to the next table as in pairs or are they just put in a stack in the middle of a group of tables? How is it handled when a table is slow and causing another table to wait for boards?

Handed down to the next table. If a table is slow and the other table is waiting, you can simply give them the NEXT board up. The basic position is:

Table 1: (finished board 1,2,3, waiting for #4)
Table 2: (finished board 3, playing #4)
Table 3: (finished board 5,6, playing #7)

Now you give table 1 board 5, telling them to return it to table 2 when they are finished. When table 2 has finished board 4, they will give it to table 1 and will play number 6 first.

Quote

How many teams attend the typical weekend ~monthly tournament in your area?

Unfortunately, only 30 or so teams attend to the weekend tournaments.

[FrancesHinden]

Quote

are all the boards made before the event, or is someone paid to make them during? Who does the duplicating, a 3rd party, director, caddies? Does anyone know the costs involved?

Usually beforehand, to the extent that they aren't going to be re-used over a two-session event. I think. Try asking someone like Max Bavin in England who can tell you how it is organised.

Quote

how many matches share a set of boards? 7-8 board rounds. Shared by 4 tables? 6? Is there any concern about security, people overhearing remarks from neighboring tables? How are the tables typically arranged?

There are usually two boards put out per table. They aren't shared between 4 tables but rather moved round the room like a pairs movement - a 'snake' round the room. Boards always move in one direction, the TD usually tells you as they come up "boards to the North, please" or whatever.

Yes, there are potential security issues, although during the play these are similar to what you always get in a pairs events. It is useful to have space outside the playing area for people to score up, as the biggest security problem is the next door table having a loud conversation "+2220" "Well bid, 17 in" before you have got to that boad.

Quote

Are boards just passed on to the next table as in pairs or are they just put in a stack in the middle of a group of tables? How is it handled when a table is slow and causing another table to wait for boards?

As mentioned, just passed on to the next table as in pairs.

There are generally a few extra sets of boards - boards tend to feed in at table 1 and go out of play at the last table (rather than closing the loop) and typically there are a couple of spare sets laid out at the side of the room for use by people who get ahead of the next table - you just go and take a board, play it and return it to the table. So the boards are played in a a different order by different tables, but usually laid out so that the two halves of any one match should usually play them in the same order.

Failing that, the TD's most common occupation is supplying fast tables with boards recruited from the pile accumulating next to the slow tables.

Quote

How many teams attend the typical weekend ~monthly tournament in your area?

Somewhere between 20 and 80 (used to be rather more, sadly).

[mich-b]

In Israel there aren't many Swiss Team events - I can think of 3 :
1. Open Swiss teams in Tel-Aviv Festival (close to 100 teams)
2. Mixed Swiss teams in Tel-Aviv Festival (guess around 50-60 teams).
3. Open Swiss teams in Eilat Festival (around 70-80 teams).

In all of the above events , usually the top tables (maybe top 8 matches = 16 tables) play pre-duplicated boards (not in the first couple of rounds , but for sure in the second half of the event). Of course , for the pre duplicated boards , hand records are available to the players after the session.

The pre duplicated boards , and prepared in advance by the TD and/or federation officials, usually at the federation headquarters.

There is a "central table" where boards are located , and players take the boards from there, and return them there - the order of play could be random.

Assuming 6 board rounds there might be 4 sets (24 boards) for 16 tables.

The Israeli teams league (which is a longer event played over several weekends), is played with fully preduplicated boards. The Premier League (12 teams = 12 tables) plays 14 board per match with 2 preduplicated sets (28 boards) , again , all located on a central table , and taken by the players in random order.

[Stephen Tu]

Thanks all for the info.

Quote

They aren't shared between 4 tables but rather moved round the room like a pairs movement - a 'snake' round the room

So, for this option, I take it if there are 16 tables in two rows, the initial distribution of boards might look something like:
1. 1-2 16. 7-8
2. 3-4 15. 5-6
3. 5-6 14. 3-4
4. 7-8 13. 1-2
5. 1-2 12. 7-8
6. 3-4 11. 5-6
7. 5-6 10. 3-4
8. 7-8 9. 1-2
? With boards going up one row & down the other, and perhaps another extra set of boards for fast tables.

Are both halves of a match here, e.g. at tables 1 & 5, 2 & 6, 3&7, or is this the "open room" with the other half of the matches being played at 16 corresponding tables in another room or the other side of a large auditorium?

[Trinidad]

I would like to add that the TD needs to make the movements of boards in such a way that at both tables in the match the exact same boards are played.

Every now and then there will be a duplication error. As long as both tables in the match play the exact physical same board this won't cause any problems in the team scoring. Then, when there is a duplication error, you only need to throw out results from the Butler scoring, which is of secondary importance anyway.

The guy who duplicates the boards for our league matches is notoriously sloppy. This guy also duplicates for our club games. Because of this guy's sloppiness we "duplicate" only one board set in our pairs games. (This gives us the advantage of having hand records.)

In the club team games we need more board sets. But we make sure that the same physical board is played at both tables in the match. (These matches use the green boards, those matches use the yellow ones.)

When we play league matches, boards are thrown out regularly because the boards were misduplicated and the TDs don't want to carry boards from the closed room to the open room and back. Obviously, players are not allowed to carry the boards from the closed room to the open room either. I think these TDs have their priorities reversed. Since I am a TD myself, this lack of drive to do things right makes me itch.

Rik

[Oof Arted]

Stephen Tu, on Apr 8 2009, 03:11 PM, said:

Are both halves of a match here, e.g. at tables 1 & 5, 2 & 6, 3&7, or is this the "open room" with the other half of the matches being played at 16 corresponding tables in another room or the other side of a large auditorium?

hi

Here in Blighty we tend to assign Teams at 2 Tables of the Same Number but Different Colour then N/S are at 1 and their E/W at the other. The opposing team being in the Opposite positions of course.

Dependant on size of Field/s We use Red/White Green/Blue Yellow/Black Orange/Purple

Yes we do have Large events up to 150 Tables at Brighton

All Boards ARE preduplicated for ALL sessions even though we tend to have operators on site Duplimating for later sessions

As Frances states we pass Boards To North in 1st Row to south in 2nd row and onwards unless concentric loops then boards come out at Table 1

Hope it Hepls

[skjaeran]

Stephen Tu, on Apr 6 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

I'd like to know how this is handled elsewhere. Some questions:

• are all the boards made before the event, or is someone paid to make them during? Who does the duplicating, a 3rd party, director, caddies? Does anyone know the costs involved?
  
• how many matches share a set of boards? 7-8 board rounds. Shared by 4 tables? 6? Is there any concern about security, people overhearing remarks from neighboring tables? How are the tables typically arranged?
  
• Are boards just passed on to the next table as in pairs or are they just put in a stack in the middle of a group of tables? How is it handled when a table is slow and causing another table to wait for boards?
  
• How many teams attend the typical weekend ~monthly tournament in your area?

I was at the Olrud Easter Festival last weekend and part of this week. TD in the main pairs and scoring the Swiss Teams, both broadcast at BBO.

For the swiss teams on Monday and Tuesday all boards were preduplicated. By one in the organizing staff. (same for all tournaments)

We don't share boards between tables. The two tables in the BBO match both had a complete set of boards. For the rest of the matches two caddies changed boards throughout.

26 teams participated.

We used Bridgemates. I had some problems, but those had to do with being unfamiliar with the new version of the scoring program (first session) and the scoring program itself (last session).

[JoAnneM]

Stephen, just my opinion but you have talked to the wrong person, unless he was your last stop along the way. Jackie Mathews, D21 TM, and the D21 DIC would be the people to be discussing this with. Or just keep plugging away till you find someone there on your side. Better yet, become involved yourself, which it looks like you are doing. You also might try appearing before that board yourself and making a presentation, which I have done, with success.

[Stephen Tu]

Well, they apparently discussed this before & came to the current conclusion. The main objection seem to be the sheer # of boards needed, since $12.50 per board set is the current cost for duplication, by third party. Or if not contracted out, figure out who is willing to do this extra duplication work & not play in the event. Plus, potentially 60 sets of boards is a lot for the directors to be lugging around, probably 4x more than what they do currently, are that many sets even available (along w/ bar code cards) & how do you transport them to the tourney site? I need to figure out how to answer these logistical hurdles before putting in any proposals.

I wanted to see if people had some clever way of doing things so that these objections could be overcome, for events of 60-120 teams x 56 boards/day, without costs going up too much. (I think players might not mind paying $1 more/day for pre-dup boards + hand records, but how much more than that I don't know). From what I gather above, you need 2 sets (one for first 4 matches, another for last 3) for every 4 teams. I guess that's an extra $1.57 per player (assuming teams of 4), if the third party duplicator can actually supply that many boards.

[Cascade]

Stephen Tu, on Apr 12 2009, 07:35 AM, said:

Well, they apparently discussed this before & came to the current conclusion. The main objection seem to be the sheer # of boards needed, since $12.50 per board set is the current cost for duplication, by third party. Or if not contracted out, figure out who is willing to do this extra duplication work & not play in the event. Plus, potentially 60 sets of boards is a lot for the directors to be lugging around, probably 4x more than what they do currently, are that many sets even available (along w/ bar code cards) & how do you transport them to the tourney site? I need to figure out how to answer these logistical hurdles before putting in any proposals.

I wanted to see if people had some clever way of doing things so that these objections could be overcome, for events of 60-120 teams x 56 boards/day, without costs going up too much. (I think players might not mind paying $1 more/day for pre-dup boards + hand records, but how much more than that I don't know). From what I gather above, you need 2 sets (one for first 4 matches, another for last 3) for every 4 teams. I guess that's an extra $1.57 per player (assuming teams of 4), if the third party duplicator can actually supply that many boards.

I think I could deal between four and six sets of 24-28 boards per hour so this seems to me to be a very generous rate of remuneration.

I don't regularly deal boards any more but I used to do 50+% of the boards for our club and if things went without mechanical hitches I could get a set out in about 10 minutes. I wish someone was paying me $US50 - $US75 for an hour of dealing boards.

[TimG]

Stephen Tu, on Apr 11 2009, 02:35 PM, said:

(along w/ bar code cards)

The newest dealing machines do not need bar coded cards. The machines are more expensive, as you might expect.

[Mbodell]

TimG, on Apr 11 2009, 12:25 PM, said:

Stephen Tu, on Apr 11 2009, 02:35 PM, said:

(along w/ bar code cards)

The newest dealing machines do not need bar coded cards. The machines are more expensive, as you might expect.

Yeah, but in the area that Stephen is talking about we have 3 dealing machines at clubs/units already that might be able to be used (that I don't think need the bar code cards).

[jillybean]

7 years later we still don't have duplicated boards for Teams Games in ACBL Tournaments. I'm about to raise the topic with the ACBL again.

For those BBO'ers in developed countries, what advancements have happened that I should be aware of?

[Siegmund]

Many sectionals in my area are now using duplicated boards for the Swiss.

As mentioned upthread, one set of boards per 4 tables per session. So 10 sets for a 20-table 2-session Swiss. (In an emergency, you can have only half that many, and have someone re-dealing the morning boards as soon as the 2nd match starts, and making the afternoon boards -- but you really don't want to commit to that.)
In Montana, there is a travelling set of six or so boards that go to every tournament in the state so there are enough boards. In Idaho we had to have at least 3 clubs provide boards for 1 sectional.

The dealing is timeconsuming but not a huge hurdle. Getting enough boards, and getting the cooperation of the director, is the hard part. There is (extreme) resistance to duplicated boards at Regional swisses -- for reasons which are not clear to me. I am cautiously optimistic than in maybe 3 more years it will become common at regionals. At the sectional level I saw it for the first time in 2012 and it spread like wildfire and became a majority thing in this area by 2015.

[barmar]

Siegmund, on 2016-July-14, 20:26, said:

As mentioned upthread, one set of boards per 4 tables per session. So 10 sets for a 20-table 2-session Swiss. (In an emergency, you can have only half that many, and have someone re-dealing the morning boards as soon as the 2nd match starts, and making the afternoon boards -- but you really don't want to commit to that.)
In Montana, there is a travelling set of six or so boards that go to every tournament in the state so there are enough boards. In Idaho we had to have at least 3 clubs provide boards for 1 sectional.

Our last EMBA sectional Swiss was more than twice that size: A/X was 16 tables, B/C/D was 22, and the 1-session 299er was 11.

[Vampyr]

One thing that duplicated boards allow is Auatralian movements. These are a lot more efficient, and there is less wasted time between rounds as the next table is given by the Bridgemates.

[blackshoe]

I'm guessing you mean "Australian movements", but either way I've never heard of them. Can you explain?

[RMB1]

blackshoe, on 2016-July-16, 08:56, said:

I'm guessing you mean "Australian movements", but either way I've never heard of them. Can you explain?

Teams have a home table (table number = team number) and NS play at that table throughout.
The assignments just need to tell you the number of the opponents and that is the (table) number where EW play.

With bridgemates: at the start of the match the bridgemate displays the opponents number (as the number of EW who will play at this table) so the EW know where to play.

It is possible that matches are played at adjacent tables but when every table is playing the same boards, this is not much of an issue.