[mtvesuvius]

All Vulnerable at MPs you hold:

9
QT74
J963
AQ82

Partner deals and bids a 13-15 NT, RHO bids 2♠, your bid?

You are NOT playing negative doubles on the 2 Level. Double would be penalty.
You are playing that Fast Denies.

This post has been edited by mtvesuvius: 2009-May-10, 08:46

[jmcw]

I have too much to pass and not enough to force. Therefore I DBL, partner will likely bid a minor and I'm passing for a +.

[mtvesuvius]

jmcw, on May 10 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

I have too much to pass and not enough to force. Therefore I DBL, partner will likely bid a minor and I'm passing for a +.

Double would have been penalty... I wanted to double also, but we hadn't talked about Negative Doubles

[barryallen]

I thought this was standard? direct 3♠ showing game force with 4♥?

sorry, just noticed the NT point range. Still looks the best option?

[jmcw]

barryallen, on May 10 2009, 10:26 AM, said:

I thought this was standard? direct 3♠ showing game force with 4♥?

sorry, just noticed the NT point range. Still looks the best option?

Looks a bit light to force to game even opposite a 15/16

[kenrexford]

Play negative doubles. Next hand.

[Mbodell]

I pass.

[655321]

3♠.

If partner has hearts, we are happy. If not... well, we are a bit high, but 3NT has not gone down yet, and the alternative seems to be to defend 2♠.

BTW, even playing negative doubles after a 1NT opening I don't like to double with a singleton in their suit, because partner will pass the double pretty much whenever he has 4 cards.

[matmat]

kenrexford, on May 10 2009, 06:00 PM, said:

Play negative doubles. Next hand.

hehe

[rbforster]

kenrexford, on May 10 2009, 06:00 PM, said:

Play negative doubles.  Next hand.

Scoring: IMP

1N*-(2♠)-?

*13-15

---

[the hog]

Rob F, on May 11 2009, 08:21 AM, said:

kenrexford, on May 10 2009, 06:00 PM, said:

Play negative doubles.  Next hand.

Scoring: IMP

1N*-(2♠)-?

*13-15

---

Yes, and? Don't you think that opener will reopen with a X? Wtp unless overcaller has psyched?

[rbforster]

Ah, I forget some people like to reopen opposite partner's potentially broke pass while forcing to the 3 level Vul.

Scoring: IMP

1NT*-(2♠)-P-(P)
X**-P-?

* 13-15
** takeout

---

For them, they get to play a 4-3 fit (breaking badly) where partner's 4333 bust with xxxx in the overcaller's trump suit can't cause sufficient trouble on defense. Instead of passing out their partial, thank partner for your choice between serving up game with 0-1 doubled overtricks or going down two doubled in your bad minor fit.

The point is there are always holes in your methods. Aside from playing the almost magically good Inverted Weasel System to solve all your bidding problems (fast pass = takeout, slow pass = broke, slow X = serious penalty, fast X = suggested penalty), if the perfect treatment for takeout vs penalty hasn't been invented yet, it's because it doesn't exist. So saying you should play the other way just means you pay off to not being able to handle some hands instead of others.

In this case, Ken wants negative doubles (I agree), so OP's hand isn't a problem. Then my hand is a problem (invitational strength, with a strong desire to penalize rather than play NT), unless the 1N hand always reopens. Then your problem hand is when you're broke and they've got the balance of power and you're too weak to sit for the double and instead get clobbered running to some bad fit. You just chase the problems around.

[hanp]

Playing penalty doubles you will have FAR MORE problem hands though.

[rogerclee]

Rob if your point is that there are some problems with playing negative doubles, I believe you.

[gwnn]

I think he was giving a facetious answer to Kens question (albeit technically there was no question by Ken).

[Codo]

Back to the question: Pass

[the hog]

rogerclee, on May 11 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

Rob if your point is that there are some problems with playing negative doubles, I believe you.

Yes, I don't think anyone denies this, but as Han says, if you don't play -ve Xs there will be more problems of a different nature.

[Gerben42]

Original question: Pass, and agree negative Dbl.

Quote

  Ah, I forget some people like to reopen opposite partner's potentially broke pass while forcing to the 3 level Vul.

Dealer:  North
Vul:  N/S
Scoring:  IMP

♠  xxxx
♥  xxx
♦  Jxx
♣  Qxx
1NT*-(2♠)-P-(P)
X**-P-?

* 13-15
** takeout


For them, they get to play a 4-3 fit (breaking badly) where partner's 4333 bust with xxxx in the overcaller's trump suit can't cause sufficient trouble on defense. Instead of passing out their partial, thank partner for your choice between serving up game with 0-1 doubled overtricks or going down two doubled in your bad minor fit.

In practice this rarely happens, as the auction tends to go either

1NT (Dbl) or

1NT (2♠) p (something strong)

[kenrexford]

Rob F, on May 10 2009, 08:21 PM, said:

kenrexford, on May 10 2009, 06:00 PM, said:

Play negative doubles.  Next hand.

Scoring: IMP

1N*-(2♠)-?

*13-15

---

This comes up a lot.

[whereagles]

Tactically speaking, the 2♠ overcall won the pot. Not playing negative doubles, with this hand you have two choices:

1. pass, and hope this goes down 2.
2. bid 3♠, and hope pard has hearts and you make 4♥.

Since opps are at their correct Total Tricks level, I'd choose option 2.