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I don't expect this suggestion to be popular. Not sure that I have thought it through fully myself, and am nearing the bottom of the bottle now anyway:
How about giving dummy the option to reject a claim (including a claim by declarer!)? This seems to be in keeping with the general feeling on this forum that we should simulate as far as possible the laws requiring that play ceases on a claim. Can dummy reject a claim in face to face?
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Claiming (yawn)
#1
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Posted 2004-June-18, 15:16
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
s
t
r-m
nd
ing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
str-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees."Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#2
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Posted 2004-June-18, 15:37
Err.... no....
Dummy can see all four hands. He is not allowed to speak, and certainly should never be allowed to issue or reject claims.
Ben
Dummy can see all four hands. He is not allowed to speak, and certainly should never be allowed to issue or reject claims.
Ben
--Ben--
#3
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Posted 2004-June-18, 19:39
Face to face, dummy IS allowed to reject a claim, because play ceased, and he is not dummy anymore (discussed on bridgetalk forums not too much ago).
Before giving dummy such rights, you have to be sure play cease as soon hand is claimed. About seeing cards, there are lines he could not suggest, but s/he could do it. However, would originate an endless number of discussions
Before giving dummy such rights, you have to be sure play cease as soon hand is claimed. About seeing cards, there are lines he could not suggest, but s/he could do it. However, would originate an endless number of discussions
#4
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Posted 2004-June-19, 04:23
inquiry, on Jun 18 2004, 04:37 PM, said:
Err.... no....
Dummy can see all four hands. He is not allowed to speak, and certainly should never be allowed to issue or reject claims.
Ben
Dummy can see all four hands. He is not allowed to speak, and certainly should never be allowed to issue or reject claims.
Ben
Any player who currently has the right to accept or reject claims can see all 4 hands the moment a claim is made. I do not see this as a relevant point.
I absolutely concur that dummy should never be allowed to issue a claim. That is not being suggested.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
str-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees."Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#5
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Posted 2004-June-19, 13:10
I think that central to this issue is:
If defenders claim tricks, dummy can see that the claim is faulty but declarer cannot (without UI from dummy) should the defender's claim be allowed to succeed?
Currently the claim succeeds because declarer (in above situation) would accept the claim and dummy is forced to remain silent on the issue (unless he speaks up publicly before declarer has clicked on accept).
Now, I can understand the logic that says that if declarer is so incompetent as to fail to appreciate that the claim is flawed then he deserves what he gets by accepting the claim, and if he is alerted to the flaw by dummy's rejection of the claim (should it be permitted), following which the hand is played out, then the UI that he has received from dummy's rejection could contribute to his not receiving his "just deserts".
On the other hand, if the opponents make a faulty claim then their own "just deserts" would counter this. Furthermore, my suggestion more closely follows the laws.
Furthermore, under existing arrangements, if declarer claims and one defender accepts while the other rejects, and play continues, then the defender who accepted could be regarded as being in receipt of the same UI, yet this is permitted.
The more I think about it, the more I think that all 3 players at the table (other than the claimant, who must not be dummy) should have the power to reject any claim.
If defenders claim tricks, dummy can see that the claim is faulty but declarer cannot (without UI from dummy) should the defender's claim be allowed to succeed?
Currently the claim succeeds because declarer (in above situation) would accept the claim and dummy is forced to remain silent on the issue (unless he speaks up publicly before declarer has clicked on accept).
Now, I can understand the logic that says that if declarer is so incompetent as to fail to appreciate that the claim is flawed then he deserves what he gets by accepting the claim, and if he is alerted to the flaw by dummy's rejection of the claim (should it be permitted), following which the hand is played out, then the UI that he has received from dummy's rejection could contribute to his not receiving his "just deserts".
On the other hand, if the opponents make a faulty claim then their own "just deserts" would counter this. Furthermore, my suggestion more closely follows the laws.
Furthermore, under existing arrangements, if declarer claims and one defender accepts while the other rejects, and play continues, then the defender who accepted could be regarded as being in receipt of the same UI, yet this is permitted.
The more I think about it, the more I think that all 3 players at the table (other than the claimant, who must not be dummy) should have the power to reject any claim.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
str-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees."Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#6
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Posted 2004-June-19, 23:34
How about some automatic deep finesse analysis at the time of the claim?
If a double-dummy play exists to enable the non-claiming side to take more tricks than the claiming side is offering them, then the software could automatically adjust the score to the maximum number of tricks that they can possibly take.
If a double-dummy play exists to enable the non-claiming side to take more tricks than the claiming side is offering them, then the software could automatically adjust the score to the maximum number of tricks that they can possibly take.
Disclaimer: The above post may be a half-baked sarcastic rant intended to stimulate discussion and it does not necessarily coincide with my own views on this topic.
I ♦ bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
I ♦ bidding the suit below the suit I'm actually showing not to be described as a "transfer" for the benefit of people unfamiliar with the concept of a transfer
#7
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Posted 2004-June-20, 02:59
mrdct, on Jun 20 2004, 06:34 AM, said:
How about some automatic deep finesse analysis at the time of the claim?
If a double-dummy play exists to enable the non-claiming side to take more tricks than the claiming side is offering them, then the software could automatically adjust the score to the maximum number of tricks that they can possibly take.
If a double-dummy play exists to enable the non-claiming side to take more tricks than the claiming side is offering them, then the software could automatically adjust the score to the maximum number of tricks that they can possibly take.
That's quite silly, since someone can claim from trick one. If it's automaticly accepted because DF found a way by endplaying his lho twice and pull up a double squeeze in the end, people will use this too much. They don't need skill to play anymore, they just let DF play as good as possible, and get their result
REALLY NOT a good idea!!
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#8
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Posted 2004-June-20, 04:08
mrdct, on Jun 20 2004, 12:34 AM, said:
How about some automatic deep finesse analysis at the time of the claim?
If a double-dummy play exists to enable the non-claiming side to take more tricks than the claiming side is offering them, then the software could automatically adjust the score to the maximum number of tricks that they can possibly take.
If a double-dummy play exists to enable the non-claiming side to take more tricks than the claiming side is offering them, then the software could automatically adjust the score to the maximum number of tricks that they can possibly take.
If N/S claims (say) 9 tricks, and DF can find *no* way for N/S to take any other number of tricks than precisely 9 then the claim should be autoaccepted. If DF can fined *no* way for N/S to take precisely 9 tricks then the claim should be autorejected. I think that there is some mileage in that proposal.
Any other combination and I don't think you should rely on DF, unless perhaps you can bolt on some AI module that is capable of applying some intelligence to the analysis. I think that most players would not want to place their trust in such a system.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mstr-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
str-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees."Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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