[Hanoi5]

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-500

[aguahombre]

looks like an ELC double for North. The heart suit is good. Would rather have one more Diamond for either call, but like double better.

[JLOGIC]

Hard to believe this is real, but I will say north has a routine takeout X. I do not play ELC and it doesn't matter, doubling is safer and gets hearts into play easier.

That said, I probably blame the card play because it must have been pretty weak. If clubs are not 5-1 there are 7 top tricks. I assume spades were 6-3 so its tough for clubs to be 5-1.

I also blame the opponents for defending 2D X with 9 spades and 19 HCP.

I also wonder how this could be an ATB, what else was south supposed to do? he had an amazing hand for this auction.

[Hanoi5]

So you'd double even though you don't play ELC? I understand this is a very 'weird' hand but according to the program both sides can make 6 tricks in diamonds. East held ♠T98x♥Qx♦AQ7xxx♣x.

I was wondering whether any of the players could 'do' something after double, this wasn't online bridge but a team match in an important tournament. Or if I was just resulting.

[nigel_k]

It looks like opponents have enough to bid and make game. Only a trump lead makes it interesting and declarer can still guess correctly to make. But I agree with Justin that North should double whether ELC or not and South is obviously blameless.

[kayin801]

N has a X.

There was that epic thread a little while back about whether it was right to X, pass, or bid 2x (though in that case it was a 2542 hand) with this and someone generated 2577432y59825 hands on it and I don't remember the exact outcome but I'm pretty sure 2x came out as the clear loser.

[gnasher]

West is barking mad.

[han]

Really? I'd say north bid way worse than west. North has an obvious double, but is it obvious what west should do?

I found that west held KQJxx Kxx - Q109xx, correct? Andy, what do you want west to do after 1S - 2D - pass - pass?

[gnasher]

han, on 2011-April-01, 08:36, said:

Really? I'd say north bid way worse than west. North has an obvious double, but is it obvious what west should do?

I didn't say North was sane. I agree that 2♦ is awful.

Having said that, I don't mind a style where North's hand is a pass over 1♠. It's nice to be able to bid 1♠ dbl 2♠ 3♣ on a five-card suit, and to be able to respond 2♣ to a takeout double on a four-card suit.

Quote

I found that west held KQJxx Kxx - Q109xx, correct? Andy, what do you want west to do after 1S - 2D - pass - pass?

Definitely not double. I have no diamonds and no aces. If I double, it's very likely that partner will leave it in, and fairly unlikely that we'll beat it. If we do beat it, we're unlikely to beat it by more than one. If partner passes the double of a moderate hand with diamond length because he can't think of anything better to do, it could well make an overtrick. If I double, presumably I'm planning to pass 2♥ or 2♠, so double won't often get us to game.

All in all, double seems rather worse than pass. However, I wouldn't do either of those - I'd bid 3♣, which is a bit of a stretch, but at least it gets us to game when we're making.

[han]

(Don't tell this to anybody, but I think double is completely automatic and I still sometimes bid 2C or 3C as you suggested.)

[gnasher]

I'm not surprised. It's well known that people on the wrong side of the English Channel don't understand takeout doubles.

[han]

English Channel? What's that?

[MrAce]

han, on 2011-April-01, 14:45, said:

English Channel? What's that?

I dunno that either but letme tell what i think about what he says about this hand and his choice, if i got it correct.

You both think N's 2♦ is a very bad call. And when 2♦ comes in front of you, we all expect a reasonable 2♦ overcall, if not better than just reasonable at these colors. Andy is not optimistic going for penalty vs a reasonable or a good 2♦ overcall with what he holds. And even with this very bad 2♦ overcall in actual hand he would collect only +200 if i am not wrong. I believe thats pretty good thinking by him to be ruled out by you, saying "Don't say this to anyone,DBL is auto"

[JLOGIC]

Gnasher, you end up coming to the conlcusion that passing is right on a very good 14 count with (relatively) short spades and a lot of potential to make a game/partscore, because otherwise you might play a 5-2 fit at the 3 level every now and then? Or a very rare 4-2 or even 3-2 fit at the 2 level? It seems completely like losing the forest through the trees.

Though I know we will never agree on takeout doubles, I thought even you would be on board with this one. This hand is just way too good to be passing imo. I'm sure you'll tell me you can get to game anyways after passing but I don't see it, unless you get lucky to get 1S p 1N p 2C, every other auction you will be playing catch up.

[JLOGIC]

Even in a relatively simple auction like:

1S X 2S

For us to play a 5-2 club fit all of the following must be true:

1) Partner does not have 4 hearts
2) Partner does not have 4 diamonds
3) Partner does not have 6+ clubs
4) The opps do not compete to 3S (as they often will if partner is 2335)

And then, why does 3C have to go down? We've all been in 5-2 fits before. And what would the alternative be? Had it gone 1S p 2S p p, what would you do? Surely you would double, and then you might well pass 3C, because you have the same exact inferences (partner has 5 clubs and no 4 card red suit almost for sure, and though he might be 3235 or so, he will often have 6+ clubs also). I don't see how you've gained in this scenario anyways.

But sometimes partner would have passed 2S with 5 clubs depending on his hand/values, and in those cases at least you could defend 2S rather than passing and balancing.

That is the auction where we would find a 5-2 club fit at the 3 level most of the time. If partner got to bid 2C to begin with and then bid again later, he would usually just double (again depends on his hand, but 3-5 in the minors should not just bid 3C very often).

Likewise, 1S X p 2C p p p is possible, and is a danger, but usually the opponents could have bid something (especially with 8 spades), often partner has 4 hearts, and if neither of those was true usually partner would have had enough to bid 1N. I am not saying that scenario is impossible, but it happens infrequently enough that I'm not going to worry about it. My main goal is getting to 4H or 3N when it's possible while also getting in safely (rather than passing and balancing which is dangerous and also doesn't get my values across, greatly hurting my chances of finding games). My main concern is not what happens if the stars align so that we play 2C.

It is really crazy to me that if the hand was 2353, EVERYONE would make the obvious double, but when its 2452 which is a hand that has way more potential for game and partscore because it has way more potential to make 4H/3H, AND will get us to 8 card fits more often (because partner is going to be bidding hearts so often when he has 4, and trying to compete in hearts), people are still passing or bidding 2D because of OMG THE DOUBLETON CLUB!

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2011-April-01, 15:55, said:

Gnasher, you end up coming to the conlcusion that passing is right on a very good 14 count with (relatively) short spades and a lot of potential to make a game/partscore, because otherwise you might play a 5-2 fit at the 3 level every now and then? Or a very rare 4-2 or even 3-2 fit at the 2 level? It seems completely like losing the forest through the trees.

Though I know we will never agree on takeout doubles, I thought even you would be on board with this one. This hand is just way too good to be passing imo. I'm sure you'll tell me you can get to game anyways after passing but I don't see it, unless you get lucky to get 1S p 1N p 2C, every other auction you will be playing catch up.

No, I didn't reach that conclusion. I said "I don't mind a style where North's hand is a pass over 1♠", and then I gave some examples of the advantages of that approach. I didn't say there weren't any disadvantages, and I didn't say I prefer that style.

[han]

Andy, to get back to the west hand, I asked a very fine player what she would do. The answer was "double, that was an easy question!".

[Trinidad]

han, on 2011-April-02, 03:58, said:

Andy, to get back to the west hand, I asked a very fine player what she would do. The answer was "double, that was an easy question!".

You didn't ask me and I wouldn't have answered that either.

Rik

[gnasher]

han, on 2011-April-02, 03:58, said:

Andy, to get back to the west hand, I asked a very fine player what she would do. The answer was "double, that was an easy question!".

Did you tell her that she's barking mad?

Seriously, Han, this isn't much more useful that me telling you what my mother would bid. The point of a forum like this is to discuss the reasons for taking particular action. Saying the equivalent of "Trust me, this is the right bid" adds almost nothing to the conversation, regardless of who says it, and it's not going to change anybody's mind.

Incidentally, I have no idea who I just accused of insanity, so it's nothing personal.