[MrAce]

gnasher, on 2011-April-09, 16:02, said:

I'm glad to see that you're all taking more than a nanosecond over this. It's a good idea for at least one member of the partnership to think about the defence.

Since you insisted, Andy, i think you deserve an answer. I was not gonna answer this because i didn't wanna be mean.

Before u get my answer, note that your suggestion in this topic was to cash ♥A and then exit with ♠ (correct me if i am wrong) Which was totally inconsistent with your analysis that pd DOES NOT HAVE ♥Q

gnasher, on 2011-April-06, 01:16, said:

.......................
I don't see what ♦K switch is supposed to achieve, and it risks that declarer does something inspired with AJ10xxx Q xxxx Ax.

I would just cash a top heart and then exit with a trump. If declarer knocks out partner's club and then runs trumps, partner keeps the same number of hearts as dummy, and I keep all my diamonds.

The hand I've given declarer looks like a one-level opening to me, but I'd believe my partner's carding.

Answer : Once pd discourages the ♥, i think you don't mind if we cash the ♥A just like you did. And after that it is easy to play small♦ imo.

-If declarer has Jxx ♦ he always makes
-If he has xxx or xxxx ♦ he always goes down regardless of who has the ♣8 and regardless of what u play (please just dont drop your pd's ♥J with K though )
-If declarer has Jx ♦, he was cold by simple ♦ finesse discarding his ♥ loser, so lets take that one out.
-If declarer has 4♣ without 8 and xx ♦, it still doesnt matter what u play.
-If declarer has 4♣ A8xx and xx ♦, he makes unless you play ♦ after ♥A

The point is you need your pd to have the ♦J in order to defeat this contract once you decide he doesn't have the ♥Q. Can u see how u went wrong even after you figured that pd did not have ♥Q ? You get your pd squeezed big time m8

Anyway, if pd discouraged ♥, Phil and i would defeat this in "NANO" second even if declarer had AJTxxx Q xx A8xx while u give it to them in a golden plate.

It is good at least one pd in the pdship figured that pd doesn't have the ♥Q even with the lack of ♥8 discard and forum style signalling and all that fancy stuff, but it is sad that he still did not find the correct defense.

[gnasher]

MrAce, on 2011-April-09, 21:24, said:

Before u get my answer, note that your suggestion in this topic was to cash ♥A and then exit with ♠ (correct me if i am wrong) Which was totally inconsistent with your analysis that pd DOES NOT HAVE ♥Q

I've looked carefully through my earlier posts, and I can't find anything to suggest that I would defend like that if my partner threw a heart. That is how I was going to defend if my partner threw a club.

After a club discard, it's perfectly safe to defend as I suggested, because, as I said in my very first post, "If declarer knocks out partner's club and then runs trumps, partner keeps the same number of hearts as dummy, and I keep all my diamonds."

Once partner throws a heart, that doesn't work, as you have now spotted. There are two risks, both relevant only if declarer has AJ10xxx Q xx Q8xx:
- A double squeeze, if declarer can arrange to lead a club to his 8 knock out ♣K (after drawing my trump) and isolate the heart menace, whilst retaining a diamond entry to dummy.
- Being endplayed to give dummy a trick with ♥10.

If partner threw ♥8, I would, after thinking about the rest of the play, play a diamond. Then when I got in with the next heart I would play another diamond. This ensures that the contract goes down even if partner hasn't spotted the risk of a double squeeze. From what I've seen of partner's defence so far, it's best not to leave him with any decisions to make.

If my partner threw ♥J, I would cash ♥K before playing a diamond. If I didn't cash the heart, declarer could win, draw the trump, lead a club to the 8, play three rounds of diamonds, ruffing in hand, and play ♥Q.

Quote

Can u see how u went wrong even after you figured that pd did not have ♥Q ? You get your pd squeezed big time m8

I think that when you tell somebody they are wrong, you should make sure that you've understood what they said.

And yes, remarkably enough I had spotted the risk of a squeeze after a heart discard. What on earth do you think was the point of my two previous posts?

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2011-April-10, 02:38

[MrAce]

gnasher, on 2011-April-10, 01:55, said:

Once partner throws a heart, that doesn't work, as you have now spotted. There are two risks, both relevant only if declarer has AJ10xxx Q xx Q8xx:
- A double squeeze, if declarer can arrange to lead a club to his 8 (after drawing my trump) and isolate the heart menace, whilst retaining a diamond entry to dummy.
- Being endplayed to give dummy a trick with ♥10.

Andy was this a typo ?

Anyway he doesn't need to play a ♣ to his 8, he can simply play a ♣ from hand to to dummy's Q if he has 8. If u say you would not play ♠ but a ♦ if pd discards a ♥, i will take your word on this and disregard what i wrote then. Sorry m8.

[gnasher]

MrAce, on 2011-April-10, 02:28, said:

Andy was this a typo ?

Anyway he doesn't need to play a ♣ to his 8, he can simply play a ♣ from hand to to dummy's Q if he has 8.

Yes, sorry, I meant that he should knock out ♣K - I'd only just got up when I wrote that

In the double squeeze line he has to play ♣Q, to force partner to win it. If the endplay line (after partner throws ♥J), he has to play a club to the 8, to score a trick without partner winning it.

I've edited the original post, for the sake of anyone who tries to make sense of it later.

[MrAce]

gnasher, on 2011-April-10, 02:35, said:

Yes, sorry, I meant that he should knock out ♣K - I'd only just got up when I wrote that

In the double squeeze line he has to play ♣Q, to force partner to win it. If the endplay line (after partner throws ♥J), he has to play a club to the 8, to score a trick without partner winning it.

You mean if we don't play ♦ after ♥A (assume pd discarded ♥8)

[gnasher]

MrAce, on 2011-April-10, 02:38, said:

You mean if we don't play ♦ after ♥A (assume pd discarded ♥8)

Yes.

[MrAce]

I may be missing something, what endplay ? Show me pls after we cashed ♥A and lets say we played a ♠

---

How does end play work here ?

[gnasher]

Anyway, the point I was eventually getting to was this. If we compare the two possible signalling strategies:

(1) The only way to deny ♥Q is to throw a high heart. All other discards show ♥Q.
(2) To deny ♥Q, partner can throw a high heart or a small club. To show ♥Q, partner can throw a small heart or a high club.

(1) means that partner has to signal with a potential trick. Once partner discourages hearts, we have to defend quite carefully to avoid turning it into an actual trick. (2) means that we can defend on autopilot. Isn't it obviously better to be playing (2)?

[gnasher]

MrAce, on 2011-April-10, 03:00, said:

I may be missing something, what endplay ? Show me pls after we cashed ♥A and lets say we played a ♠

How does end play work here ?

It doesn't. The endplay occurs if (a) partner throws ♥J, and (b) we don't cash ♥A.

[MrAce]

gnasher, on 2011-April-10, 03:01, said:

Anyway, the point I was eventually getting to was this. If we compare the two possible signalling strategies:

(1) The only way to deny ♥Q is to throw a high heart. All other discards show ♥Q.
(2) To deny ♥Q, partner can throw a high heart or a small club. To show ♥Q, partner can throw a small heart or a high club.

(1) means that partner has to signal with a potential trick. Once partner discourages hearts, we have to defend quite carefully to avoid turning it into an actual trick. (2) means that we can defend on autopilot. Isn't it obviously better to be playing (2)?

Actually, if declarer has the ♣ 8, pd may not afford to discard a higher ♣. And i think it's priority is higher than the ♥ since we also have ♥ guards but only pd is in charge of ♣s

EDIT: And my point was; you and i and other posters look at this hand on the forum page, think about all the possible shapes and try to figure which signal worls best for us, and then we expect pd to do the same and as a result we expect him to think exactly as we do. No doubt thats ideal. But you know very well as i do, we rarely have this luxury and the time at the table. Pd played ♣2, as u said thi can mean he doesnt have ♥Q, he may just want ♣, he may have not afforrd to play higher ♣. By the way, if he knew our ♣ lead was stiff, why didn't he discard a small ♦ ? After all he saw declarer with 2 black aces, declarer cant have ♦K too, and if he has what he discards wouldn't matter...Can declarer have a stiff K ? Who knows...I have seen much more in a preempt in JEC matches.

[MrAce]

gnasher, on 2011-April-10, 03:02, said:

It doesn't. The endplay occurs if (a) partner throws ♥J, and (b) we don't cash ♥A.

Oh ok, thats why i asked "You mean after we cash ♥A and not play a ♦" It didnt occur to me he wld discard ♥J though.

[gnasher]

MrAce, on 2011-April-10, 03:05, said:

Actually, if declarer has the ♣ 8, pd may not afford to discard a higher ♣. And i think it's priority is higher than the ♥ since we also have ♥ guards but only pd is in charge of ♣s

If partner has a heart entry and he tells us about it, we won't need to keep either heart or club guards. Declarer won't have any small clubs left, because we will have take out ruff.

[MrAce]

gnasher, on 2011-April-10, 03:14, said:

If partner has a heart entry and he tells us about it, we won't need to keep either heart or club guards. Declarer won't have any small clubs left, because we will have take out ruff.

And if pd has NO ♥ entry, he should tell about it also, and be clear when making this. No need for all these complex signalling. Look what u put on ♣2;

"pd i want a ♣ but i also figured u have no ♣, so i actually expect you to understand that i understood you led your stiff and i don't actually want a ♣, i want ♦, not that i have anything in ♦, i just don't want you to lead under your AK of ♥. Although you would lead your stiff even if u held AKQ of ♥ i figured you dont hold it this time. So i have J83 in ♥"

Discard ♥8 dammit!!!

[gnasher]

MrAce, on 2011-April-10, 03:59, said:

And if pd has NO ♥ entry, he should tell about it also, and be clear when making this. No need for all these complex signalling. Look what u put on ♣2;

"pd i want a ♣ but i also figured u have no ♣, so i actually expect you to understand that i understood you led your stiff and i don't actually want a ♣, i want ♦, not that i have anything in ♦, i just don't want you to lead under your AK of ♥. Although you would lead your stiff even if u held AKQ of ♥ i figured you dont hold it this time. So i have J83 in ♥"

No I didn't. This is what ♣2 means:

"You're known to have led a singleton club. Therefore any club discard is suit preference. Diamonds are lower than hearts. Therefore ♣2 asks for a diamond rather than a heart."

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on 2011-April-10, 05:23, said:

No I didn't. This is what ♣2 means:

"You're known to have led a singleton club. Therefore any club discard is suit preference. Diamonds are lower than hearts. Therefore ♣2 asks for a diamond rather than a heart."

Or rather

"You probably led a singleton club. Therefore..... And anyway if you did lead a doubleton club you know what to play next so it's hardly an problem."

[MrAce]

Frances, can you please tell me what would ♥8 mean ? Instead of " i know u led your stiff, therefore...etc etc"

Now having said that, i already replied to Andy, saying that what you two suggesting can be ideal and probably it is with in the luxury of solving it on the forum, eliminating the things that other posters already thought for us, and of course time.

How realistic is this at the table ?

- We have people here who disagreed that the opening lead is obvious singleton. (i am not one of them though)

- We have people here who thought ♣2 shows the length of ♣ suit.

- We have people here who thought ♣2 says "pd i locked up the ♣ suit.

- We have people here who thought ♥8 was auto discard by partner in NANO second.

- We have people here who thinks ♣2 is suit pref.

Etc etc etc...My point is, as a reasonable player myself, i am already convinced what you and Andy suggesting is correct. What i disagree is that it is OBVIOUS for everyone. How many days has it been since we started to discuss this topic ? And as i listed above you can see it is FAR from being obvious to everyone.

Now please tell me, if you were sitting North, would you put yourself or your partner to all this mind reading, or just play the ♥8 and save some energy and probably save the board by avoiding a possible misunderstanding ?

[benlessard]

On this board i never expect partner to discard the 8 of H since both QJ H are missing. Common sense dictate low H = AK. QJT show top of seq. High H no honors not even the T. A high in a side suit suggest a switch the Q and a low elsewhere should suggest the JH by elimination. Those who say partner is much likly to have QH than J of D are misguided since partner doesnt have QJ of heart so is the J of d more likely than Qxx and J for declarer ?