[Cascade]

A massive hand with a cute symmetry. 7♠ makes from east but not from west and 7♥ makes from west but not from east.

---

MPs

This was the bidding at my table.

1. Lightner

Should north make a Lightner Double here?

Supplementary questions:

a/ What exactly does a Lightner double mean when partner has opened with a preempt? Does it ask for partner's (preempters) suit or a different suit?

b/ Is it any different at the six-level - I think I have asked this question before - another way of putting it is what is an unusual lead for a preempter?

2. Preempt

What should north do over 5♦?

3. Judgement

Is west really good enough for 7♥? The hand does have a couple of losers.

4. Method

Does anyone play any sophisticated methods here?

Someone suggested 6♦ rather than 5♦ is the same hand but inviting seven. Whereas 5♦ then raise is less encouraging.

5. Preempt[2]

At another table south did not open. I know everyone would open so assume that the bidding started with west ...

2♣ 2NT Dbl ?

How many diamonds from south?

Or would you psyche? What psyche?

6. Maybe some more questions which I will think of later.

[BunnyGo]

1) I would think North should double here. It should be asking South to make "an unusual lead." This is usually not diamonds, and tends to be dummies first bid suit. Here I'd take it to mean "lead a spade."

2) North should be bidding at least 6 diamonds, and I think 7 diamonds is the correct bid...let them make the last guess what to do.

3) I don't think West is good enough for a bid of 7H, but I think it's hard. He should probably bid 6 diamonds or 5NT as some sort of slam try. Preempts make life hard.

4) I do not play any sophisticated methods here. It's probably a situation only very experienced partnerships would have any methods because it comes up so rarely.

5) I don't really like psyching once the opponents have been bidding...they'll usually figure out what's what. I'd just bid some large number of diamonds (6 or 7, you know they have a heart fit and no diamond losers...why give them time to find it out too).

[rhm]

Cascade, on 2011-April-16, 19:01, said:

1. Lightner

Should north make a Lightner Double here?

Yes.

Quote

Supplementary questions:

a/ What exactly does a Lightner double mean when partner has opened with a preempt? Does it ask for partner's (preempters) suit or a different suit?

The same as in other sequences. A source of tricks somewhere, often based on a void and asks for an unexpected lead. If there is a preempt the lead still depends on the bidding sequence.
Here a void in ♦ is unlikely and a ♦ lead is the expected one. LHO is very likely to be short in ♦. However, in a top partnership this is a difficult decision, since partner should have bid the side suit void previously.

Quote

b/ Is it any different at the six-level - I think I have asked this question before - another way of putting it is what is an unusual lead for a preempter?

No, one of the side suits.

Quote

2. Preempt

What should north do over 5♦?

Bid 5♠. This can hardly be anything but a lead director based on a ♦ fit.

Quote

3. Judgement

Is west really good enough for 7♥? The hand does have a couple of losers.

I think so. If West has 5 cards in ♥ you want to be there (even though a 3-0 break is more likely after this bidding, partner is still a favorite to hold the ♥Q) and if he has 4 cards the grand still has play, still a 50% chance that partner holds the ♥Q.
Furthermore on what basis is partner supposed to accept if you invite with 6♦? I doubt he will with most hands where the grand will make. If partner has 3 cards in ♥, which is unlikely, no slam may make.
I do not live long enough to wait for a zero loser hand.

Quote

4. Method

Does anyone play any sophisticated methods here?

Someone suggested 6♦ rather than 5♦ is the same hand but inviting seven. Whereas 5♦ then raise is less encouraging.

If you are a professional do what you like. For most others, I doubt that your score will improve by ever more agreements, which come up every other leap year and where both sides have little experience, which hand would qualify and which hands would abuse the agreement.
Without agreement I would consider 6♦ not only stronger but it should also show a huge major two-suiter, which virtually forbids 7♣, unless partner has a solid suit, which can play opposite a small singleton. So it is clearly wrong when you hold ♣AKx. I would be delighted hearing 6♣ from partner over 5♦, which is usually also based on majors, and would not hesitate to raise to 7♣, expecting a seven card suit or a good six card suit, when missing AK.

Quote

5. Preempt[2]

At another table south did not open. I know everyone would open so assume that the bidding started with west ...

2♣ 2NT Dbl ?

How many diamonds from south?

3♥ for me

Quote

Or would you psyche? What psyche?

Lead director, no psyche for me. Of course this may backfire, when opponents cleverly direct the declaration into the right hand. But this is easier said than done at the table.

Rainer Herrmann

[the hog]

6D for me. Let them guess at a high level.

[DrMunk]

1) 1. Lightner

Yes!(but then maybee east bids 7 ♠?)

2)2. Preempt

North should bid 7♦. How can he bid less?

3. Judgement:
No, west is not good enough to bid 7♥. East has only made a preference for hearts, and he need not have more than a few small hearts(Swap the north and east hand, how would the bidding have gone then?)
But west is still so strong, so he should try for seven.
He should bid 6♦ over 5♥, and an inspired east might/should understand that his hearts are a lot stronger than they needed to be..

5. Preempt[2]
"
At another table south did not open. I know everyone would open so assume that the bidding started with west ...

2♣ 2NT Dbl ?"

Why did east double here? I would prefer to get started showing my suits here, and bid 3♥, even though i dont have enough hcp, east hand has potential.

[nigel_k]

1. Yes to Lightner double. I think it's better to keep it flexible so the double just asks for an unusual lead and partner has to work it out. Here they have bid grand so a normal lead is probably always a diamond or a trump. There is a risk they might run to 7♠ but I don't expect partner to find the killing lead without my double.

2. I like 5♠ over 5♦ and otherwise would just bid 7♦.

3. West is worth 7♥ though it has some risk obviously. The contract is very good whenever partner has five hearts and at least one diamond, or Qxxx in hearts and two diamonds. You can also make in other cases.

4. No special agreements about this.

5. I wouldn't psyche here. Probably just bid 6♦ and be willing to be pushed to 7.

[JLOGIC]

I don't agree with making a lightner double on the first one.

If partner has a spade trick against 7S, we are likely beating 7H anyways without a spade lead. This is usually true unless partners trick is based on length. If partner has that much spade length, he will probably lead a spade anyways (and it's unlikely, he opened 4D!). If partner had like QJxx of spades and LHO had 7 spades or something, LHO would probably have tried to get back to 7S before bidding 7H (his partner might have equal length in the majors).

Against that, when partner does NOT have a spade trick (very likely) the opps are running to 7S every single time and they're just going to wrap it. Take this hand for example, they would both run without blinking an eye. Given our spade void and partners 4D opening, this is just extremely likely to happen if the opps are not droolers.

Rather than forcing them to run, I'll just roll the dice that partner might lead a spade. On the actual hand, for instance, it's quite possible that partner DID lead a spade, and there is no chance that LHO wasn't running to 7S. If partner had 4 small spades or something which is also reasonably likely, he would be even more likely to have led a spade.

[JLOGIC]

And then there is the complete disaster scenario where we lightner, they run to 7S, and they pick up partners trump holding which they would not have otherwise (think QJx). And they also wouldn't have made 7H on any lead (with no reason to guess spades).

Not *that* likely since it would require LHO to have 2 entries, but possible on some layouts, especially ones where partner leads a diamond against 7S and gives a ruff/sluff!

[Cascade]

I am not that convinced about bidding 5♠ as north. For one thing you have just diminished the chance that partner will be on lead.

Justin: Partner did lead a spade without the double.

[JLOGIC]

I am one of the most aggressive lightner double advocates here, but I really think they are running such a high percentage of the time (and if that run is not successful, 7H on a non spade lead would likely have been unsuccessful) that we just have to roll with it and pass and hope we hit some layout where partner leads a spade.

A club is probably his most likely lead but a spade will often be safe/whatever, and if he is 3x8x or 4x7x which is not that unlikely given everything, he might choose it just because it is the safest thing. A red suit lead would be very surprising.

So overall, I think it's not that unlikely he leads a spade with no double (probably not for the right reason but who cares!) and it is super likely they will bid 7S if we do double (like 90+ % easily).

[JLOGIC]

And of course since I play more poker than bridge these days, this thread has convinced me that if I were to hold x --- AQxxx Txxxxxx and have passed 5D (slow play!), I should bluff a lightner double of 7H since LHO will run so often, then make a lightner X of 7S, and hope partner is smart enough to work it out!

Not the first time I've seen that theme (I think sabine auken did it when they bid and raised 2 suits and she had a stiff in the one they got to, and 4 small of the other one (she would be on lead), but unfortunately partner had a stiff in the other one and not a void so it didn't quite work), but seems like a perfect spot for it.

[DrMunk]

What do you think about 5♥from east? What alternatives do you consider here?

[whereagles]

1. Lightner Should north make a Lightner Double here?

a/ What exactly does a Lightner double mean when partner has opened with a preempt? Does it ask for partner's (preempters) suit or a different suit?

b/ Is it any different at the six-level - I think I have asked this question before - another way of putting it is what is an unusual lead for a preempter?

At this level and with such unusual an auction, you can't be really sure what a dbl is or what lead it calls for. The fact diamonds were not supported doesn't make it any easier.


2. Preempt What should north do over 5♦?

Anything can work. How about 5♠, lead director with psyche overtones?


3. Judgement Is west really good enough for 7♥? The hand does have a couple of losers.

I don't think so. Only the trump loser is worrisome, though.


4. Method Does anyone play any sophisticated methods here?

Someone suggested 6♦ rather than 5♦ is the same hand but inviting seven. Whereas 5♦ then raise is less encouraging.

That seems like results-merchandizing to me. However, there's a known gadget in situations like this: a NT bid, showing willingness to defend at 1 level higher than it forces. For instance, over 4♦ North could bid 5NT, asking opener to go to 7♦ if he lacks defensive tricks and has a suitable hand (which I think he has). Not that it would detract overcaller from going to 7 by himself LOL.


5. Preempt[2]

At another table south did not open. I know everyone would open so assume that the bidding started with west ...

2♣ 2NT Dbl ?

How many diamonds from south? Or would you psyche? What psyche?

7, of course. Or psyche a major, then the other, before retreating to diamonds ahah!