[dickiegera]

---

Diamonds are 2-2
7NT easy

How does one bid it??

Thank yuo

[mike777]

1nt(14-16)=2c
2d=4nt(quant)
6nt=p

--

or

1d=1s
2c=2h(4sf)
3h=4d;;or 2nt then 3d then
4h(rkc in d)=4s(0-3)
4nt(q ask)=5d(deny q)
6d=p

[Cyberyeti]

dickiegera, on 2011-April-20, 15:03, said:

---

Diamonds are 2-2
7NT easy

How does one bid it??

Thank yuo

1♦-2♦(inverted not denying 4M)
3♣(nat 5-4 not minimum)-4♦
4♥(keycard)-4♠(0/3)
4N(Q?)-5♦(no)

what happens next depends on scoring, at teams, further investigation is only allowed if all keycards are held as it's assumed you're trying for 7, at pairs you're allowed to look for 6N.

So I'd just bid 6♦ at teams, at pairs it would go 5♥-6♣-6N

[gwnn]

3NT is one of the worst bids I've seen lately. You can have 6♦ with 3NT going down.

[Quantumcat]

Very simple, natural auction:

1♦ - 1♠
2♣ - 4♦(1)
4NT(2) - 5♦(3)
5♥(4) - 6♦(5)
6NT(6) - Pass

(1) Invite to slam
(2) Keycard
(3) 3 or 0 keycards
(4) Do you have the queen
(5) No, I don't
(6) Diamonds are an integral part of this hand and it is unlikely to be able to make 13 tricks outside of diamonds, so 6NT is the spot. Partner would have pretended to have the queen if he had five diamonds.

[JLOGIC]

Should be rather trivial, but I think a normal start would be:

1D 1S
2C 2H
2N 3D
3H

After which north will either drive it, or make some move and south will drive it, or cooperate inducing north to drive it...

[kenrexford]

The whole thing to this hand is that North's hand analysis and tactics seem dreadful.

For whoever North is, here is how I would think about this. Partner has shown nine cards (presumably) in the minors. That means at most 5 cards in the majors. If partner has either major King, there are no losers in the majors. If partner has no major King, then youprobably have at most one loser in the majors, as the club suit may provide a ditch for your second heart and as the spade hook may be working. I would expect Ax-AQxx to be sufficient to likely yield no major losers and certainly not two except on a horrible day.

Internal to the minors, partner's suits, you have both Kings, the bonus of the diamond Jack, and a known 9-fit in diamonds.

With 17 HCP, all of which are working, you have a moster.

Partner, on the other hand, has the most difficult holding to handle -- both minors. His range with a minor two-suiter after opening 1♦ runs anywhere from a Rule-of-20 11-count to a "can't show this after a strong 2♣" minor two-suiter of perhaps 23 or 24 HCP. So, at rebid, he has two bids (2♣ or 3♣) to handle a HCP range of about 11-24. That SUCKS. In that context, giving partner some help here is a really good idea. Not helping out with that rock is inexcusable.

[gwnn]

Quantumcat, on 2011-April-20, 17:21, said:

Diamonds are an integral part of this hand and it is unlikely to be able to make 13 tricks outside of diamonds, so 6NT is the spot.

Looks like a non sequitur to me... how does S know that they have 12 tricks in no trumps? What layout is 6NT supposed to cater to? Opponents ruffing something on the opening lead or diamonds breaking very bad but us being able to get 12 tricks with less than 4 coming from diamonds? Nobody told us it was MP's.

[Quantumcat]

gwnn, on 2011-April-20, 18:42, said:

Looks like a non sequitur to me... how does S know that they have 12 tricks in no trumps? What layout is 6NT supposed to cater to? Opponents ruffing something on the opening lead or diamonds breaking very bad but us being able to get 12 tricks with less than 4 coming from diamonds? Nobody told us it was MP's.

Well, your shortness is in the long hand so unless it is a dummy reversal hand, you are probably making the same number of tricks in 6NT as in 6♦. (Actually on the hand, if we were missing the ♠KQ, you could make 7♦ with trumps breaking by drawing 2 trumps, then ruffing three spades in your hand, with ♣AKQ, ♥AK and two long diamonds in dummy that equals 13 tricks If the trumps don't break you can still make 12 on the same line. When they ruff in with the ♦Q they can't draw a trump.... unless they are 4-0, in which case I'm not sure what to do!)

But we're not missing the ♠KQ so no reason to play in 6♦ since it's not giving us any more tricks than 6NT.

[gwnn]

You're either not stating some intermediate steps in your logic because they're too easy, or you're missing them because you play a different system, or I am missing something. How do you know we're not missing ♠KQ? How do you know responder doesn't have a shortness? opener seems to know precious little about his partner's hand yet he seems to be very confident about what the final contract should be.

[Yu18772]

1♦ -1♠
2♣-2♥
2NT-4NT
6NT

1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥
3NT-4♦ (*)
4♥-4NT (**)
5♥(***)-6♦/NT (depends on scoring system and your personal preference)

* - we are on our way to slam, I have 4 diamonds start cue bidding
**- Key cards
** 2 without the queen (with 6 diamonds partner would answer as if he has the queen, because of 10 card fit)

Also many other auctions are possible (as posted above), and any combination of these two. I dont think that one should reach 7, where you need to guess finesse or 2:2 ♦.
The important bid is 2♥ / 4♦ - something that would show slam interest. 3NT in this position by North is usually 12-14 with flat hand and something like AQx in ♥.

[Yu18772]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-April-20, 15:44, said:

1♦-2♦(inverted not denying 4M)

I didnt see that before - how does the typical auction go -
1♦-2♦
2♥/♠ shows 4?
Is 2♦ gf?

[Quantumcat]

gwnn, on 2011-April-20, 19:15, said:

You're either not stating some intermediate steps in your logic because they're too easy, or you're missing them because you play a different system, or I am missing something. How do you know we're not missing ♠KQ? How do you know responder doesn't have a shortness? opener seems to know precious little about his partner's hand yet he seems to be very confident about what the final contract should be.

You've got it thr wrong way round. We need to know very particular things about responder's hand to know that we are better off in diamonds than notrumps whereas almost all of responder's hands are just as good in notrumps as diamonds (or slightly better if you count that trumps breaking awfully is not the end of the world).

The way the auction has gone (my auction that is) opener knows we have 32+ HCP (he has 16, responder showed about 16+) plus a long suit, and we don't need security of trumps to get enough tricks, we have the power of high cards for that. You only need to be in a suit slam if you need the power of trumps to have enough tricks. If you have the full 33-36 HCP you can probably get away with a 4333 opposite a 4333 and still make 6NT.

Same as deciding to play 3NT instead of 4M, once you have about 27-28 HCP you may as well play 3NT rather than 4 of a major, as you are likely to have the same number of tricks, and aren't at the mercy of the opponent's distribution.

[Cyberyeti]

Yu18772, on 2011-April-20, 19:40, said:

I didnt see that before - how does the typical auction go -
1♦-2♦
2♥/♠ shows 4?
Is 2♦ gf?

No, 2♦ is not GF, opener rebids 2♥ or 2♠ with 4 F3♦ but not guaranteeing any extras. The only auctions that can stop below game are ones where opener rebids 3♦ or responder bids 3♦, 3M or 2N over opener's 2M rebid.

Playing this in ♣ is a lot easier as you can play 1♣-2♣-2♦ as your ask so 1♣-2♣-2♥ is NF, better hands bid 2♦ and partner bids 4 card majors.

I play this in a context where minors are always 4+ cards, it may be a lot more difficult to handle if your minors are potentially short.

[gwnn]

First you said that you'll play NT because 7NT is unlikely.

In the second post you said that NT will play as well as diamonds because "the shortness" is in opener's hand, you didn't explain why responder can't have a shortness too. Also, as you explained, if responder doesn't have the ♠Q, diamonds will play better. I asked you how do you know responder has the ♠Q? You didn't answer.

In the third post you said that we have 32+ points so we probably have 12 tricks. Interesting. In a way it's nice that you bring up new reasons in every post (I hate discussions when both sides repeat the same points over and over), but in doing so you're proving my point - your initial syllogism was not really sound.

Well that about what has hitherto happened in this thread. Now to the point, can we have 12 tricks in this hand outside of diamonds? (i.e. diamonds giving only two tricks because someone has like QJ98 in diamonds) Let's see, AQJx Ax Kxxx Kxx yields 2 diamonds 4 in spades (AQJx) 3 in clubs (chances for 3-3 clubs but not easy if diamonds are indeed 4-0) and 2 in hearts. I gave responder the jack of spades so it would have been a little idealistic to give him Q of hearts too. This is an approximate paragraph, it is not meant to be taken scientifically, but it is a little hard to see 10 tricks in non-diamond suits. The point is, even if we have 33 combined, we need our length tricks. If we need AKQ AKQ AKQ AKQ for our 12 tricks, that is 36 points.

[gwnn]

Oh and i forgot about Ax in hearts or Kx in clubs.

[lowerline]

3NT by North is clearly the bad bid here... Instead he should have bid 2♥ (4SF) or 4♦. The latter should deny a heart control IMHO, so I prefer 4SF.

So

---

3♥ cue (in context ♥K)
3♠ cue (in context ♠A, but I prefer a cue in the first bid suit to show 2 top honors)
4♦ RKB (with a working ♠K South takes over)
4♠ 0/3 keycards
4nt ♦Q?
5♦ no
6nt because I don't think 7nt is a good contract without the ♦Q

Steven

[Fluffy]

Why do people answer 2NT after 4th suit forcing instead of 3NT? is their plan to reopen if partner bids 3Nt over this?

[Fluffy]

double post

[TWO4BRIDGE]

JLOGIC, on 2011-April-20, 17:32, said:

Should be rather trivial, but I think a normal start would be:

1D 1S
2C 2H!
2N 3D
3H

After which north will either drive it, or make some move and south will drive it, or cooperate inducing north to drive it...

This auction starts out as one in the recent thread: What is 3h here? by mike777 ( in the "Advanced...." forum ).

This 4th suit auction is only one of TWO 4th suit auctions where Opener has limited his hand AND there is NO Reverse by Responder.
Some posters ( including KenRex.. ) agreed with the Bridge World Standard that 2H! here is F1 ( only forcing 1 round ) ... and 2NT next by Opener "could be passed" .
Soo, Opener has to bid 3NT to show some "extras" ( after 2H! ) .

Then 4D! by Responder could be Minorwood ... or ask for cuebids whichever you play...( such as in Yu18772's 2nd auction in post # 11 ) .

As far as Opener holding 5 cards ♦....I don't think it is crystal clear.