[awm]

You hold 4♠ and 4+♥. Playing 2/1, fairly standard agreements, 3♦ checkback over opener's 2NT rebid.

1♣ - 1♥
2NT - ???

What do you bid with 4/4 in the majors? What do you bid with 4/5+? How standard is this?

[Hanoi5]

Over 1NT, 2♠ shows 4-4. Why not keep it over 2NT? I play 3♣ is checkback though.

[menggq]

1C -1H
2NT- 3C = relay to 3D
3D = nat
3H =H6
3S = H4S4
3NT= TO PLAY with H4 balance hand
4C/D/S =SPL for good H suit
4H=TO PLAY

1C -1H
2NT-3C;
3D- pass = sign off show H4D6 weak hand
3H =H5 unbalance hand
3S =H5S4
3NT =H5 balance hand
4C =C FIT slam try balance hand
4D/S =SPL C FIT slam try
.......

Here is not full convention for 1X/1Y 2N/? , if u wd like to use it sd discuss with yr pd before playing.

[gwnn]

Hanoi5, on 2011-May-13, 18:40, said:

Over 1NT, 2♠ shows 4-4.

This is new to me.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

gwnn, on 2011-May-13, 19:43, said:

This is new to me.

Hanoi is playing a form of Wolff where 3C! is always checkback:
1m - 1H
2NT - 2S = 4-4

whereas:
1m - 1H
2NT - 3C! = may have 4s/5h as one of the options.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Edit: Additional Wolff sequences:
For the 1S response:
1m - 1S
2NT - ??

3H = 5/5
3C! = may have the 5s/4h as one of the options

So the 5/4 or 4/5 ALWAYS goes through 3C!.

In one form of Wolff, 3C! always asks for 4 cards ♥ ( for either of the 1-major initial responses ).
With NO 4 cards ♥, Opener replies 3D! but does not deny 3 card ♠ support.

Using Wolff also allows the intial 3D Response to be natural ( GF )... always :
1C/1D - 1H/1S
2NT - 3D = natural, GF
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A definite drawback to Wolff is that a Major suit rebid (3M ) by Responder only shows 5+cards ( GF ) whereas in "NMF"-checkback, 3M = 6+ cards.

1m - 1M
2NT - 3M = 5+M in Wolff but 6+M in NMF-checkback

[Phil]

I think standard is 4-4 (similarly, 1x - 1♠ - 2N - 3♥ is 5-5). You use checkback with 4-5.

[CSGibson]

funny, I use checkback with both 4-4 and 4-5, reserving 3♠ for freak hands 5-6 or better. This increases opener's chance of playing the contract, but exposes some of his shape in the process.

[Lurpoa]

awm, on 2011-May-13, 17:31, said:

You hold 4♠ and 4+♥. Playing 2/1, fairly standard agreements, 3♦ checkback over opener's 2NT rebid.

1♣ - 1♥
2NT - ???

What do you bid with 4/4 in the majors? What do you bid with 4/5+? How standard is this?

It is really something you should agree with your partner.
If you agreed with partner to play that 3♦ as checkback, you better also agree with her, on the meaning of other bids.

[gnasher]

You should use the asking bid to ask, and the showing bid to show.

3♠ shows a 4-5 where you're interested in a 5-2 fit, or you want to investigate how well the hands fit for slam purposes. You use 3♦ on 4-4, and on the 4-5s where you only want to know about major-suit lengths.

[FrancesHinden]

I was thought that in connection with playing 3D as checkback, that
- 3C forces 3D, either a sign-off or a club slam try
- 3D checkback
- 3 own major = natural FG with 6+ cards
- 3 other major = slam try in other minor

[TWO4BRIDGE]

awm, on 2011-May-13, 17:31, said:

You hold 4♠ and 4+♥. Playing 2/1, fairly standard agreements, 3♦ checkback over opener's 2NT rebid.

1♣ - 1♥
2NT - ???

What do you bid with 4/4 in the majors? What do you bid with 4/5+? How standard is this?

I too always wondered how the "NMF" crowd shows a 4-4.
I've always assummed Responder doesn't show his ♠ when Opener has denied 3 cards ♥ ( and denied 4 cards ♠ as well ):
1C - 1H
2NT - 3D!
3NT* - pass
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
* If Opener had by-passed a 4 card ♠ suit in favor of the 2NT rebid, s/he would have bid
3S instead of 3NT.

[Gerben42]

I am surprised there are so few people who voted what I voted. It seems natural that bidding a suit shows more shape than relaying. Also, I thought most skip 1♠ to rebid 2NT. Therefore I voted 3♦ with 4-4, 3♠ with 4-5 majors.

[fromageGB]

Hanoi5, on 2011-May-13, 18:40, said:

Over 1NT, 2♠ shows 4-4. Why not keep it over 2NT? I play 3♣ is checkback though.

Me too. Didn't know it was called Wolff !

[fromageGB]

Gerben42, on 2011-May-14, 06:24, said:

I am surprised there are so few people who voted what I voted. It seems natural that bidding a suit shows more shape than relaying.

It seems more natural to me the other way round. Making a relay implies I am interested in opener's holdings, namely 3 card heart support in this instance.

[fromageGB]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-May-13, 20:01, said:

A definite drawback to Wolff is that a Major suit rebid (3M ) by Responder only shows 5+cards ( GF ) whereas in "NMF"-checkback, 3M = 6+ cards.

Is this necessarily true? Why cannot 3♥ show a 6 card suit, and a 5 card suit goes via a relay (NMF-checkback) to discover if opener has 3 card heart support? Nothing is lost if responder has 5 hearts and <4 spades, as if opener replies 3♠ you just bid 3NT.

If opener bids 3♥ responder with 4 spades as well as his 5 hearts can bid 3♠(GF) and then sign off in 4♥ if opener does not have 4 spades and rebids 3NT.

Then 1♣ 1♥ 2NT 3♥ is a six card suit.

[BobElliott]

awm, on 2011-May-13, 17:31, said:

You hold 4♠ and 4+♥. Playing 2/1, fairly standard agreements, 3♦ checkback over opener's 2NT rebid.

1♣ - 1♥
2NT - ???

What do you bid with 4/4 in the majors? What do you bid with 4/5+? How standard is this?

1C - 1H -
2NT - 3C = D
3D = 5+H(Then 3S = 4S & 5+H)
3H = 4H & 4S
3S = C

[TWO4BRIDGE]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-May-13, 21:01, said:

"A definite drawback to Wolff is that a Major suit rebid (3M ) by Responder only shows 5+cards ( GF ) whereas in "NMF"-checkback, 3M = 6+ cards."

fromageGB, on 2011-May-14, 06:49, said:

Is this necessarily true? Why cannot 3♥ show a 6 card suit, and a 5 card suit goes via a relay (NMF-checkback) to discover if opener has 3 card heart support? Nothing is lost if responder has 5 hearts and <4 spades, as if opener replies 3♠ you just bid 3NT.

If opener bids 3♥ responder with 4 spades as well as his 5 hearts can bid 3♠(GF) and then sign off in 4♥ if opener does not have 4 spades and rebids 3NT.

Then 1♣ 1♥ 2NT 3♥ is a six card suit.

Wolff ( or Wolff Relay ) incorporates a "sign-off" for Responder ( which I failed to mention earlier ).
"Rebidding 3M by Responder AFTER going thru 3C! is a sign-off" .
The sign-off feature restricts the meaning of a 3M rebid after going thru 3C! .

Wolff Relay:
1m - 1H
2NT - 3C! ( asks for 4 cards ♥, always )
3D! ( no 4h) - 3H! = sign-off ( something like K Q x x x down and out )

likewise:
1m - 1S
2NT - 3C!
3D or 3H - 3S! = sign-off

That is why:
1m - 1S
2NT - 3S = only 5+cards M, but is GF ...and not 6+, GF
( and the direct-3S essentially denies 4 cards ♥ since didn't go thru 3C! )

-- Responder can't rebid 3S ( after going thru 3C! ) to show extra length with a GF, because it is a sign-off --.

[Lurpoa]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-May-13, 20:01, said:

Hanoi is playing a form of Wolff where 3C! is always checkback:
1m - 1H
2NT - 2S = 4-4

whereas:
1m - 1H
2NT - 3C! = may have 4s/5h as one of the options.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Edit: Additional Wolff sequences:
For the 1S response:
1m - 1S
2NT - ??

3H = 5/5
3C! = may have the 5s/4h as one of the options

So the 5/4 or 4/5 ALWAYS goes through 3C!.

In one form of Wolff, 3C! always asks for 4 cards ♥ ( for either of the 1-major initial responses ).
With NO 4 cards ♥, Opener replies 3D! but does not deny 3 card ♠ support.

Using Wolff also allows the intial 3D Response to be natural ( GF )... always :
1C/1D - 1H/1S
2NT - 3D = natural, GF
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A definite drawback to Wolff is that a Major suit rebid (3M ) by Responder only shows 5+cards ( GF ) whereas in "NMF"-checkback, 3M = 6+ cards.

1m - 1M
2NT - 3M = 5+M in Wolff but 6+M in NMF-checkback

Indeed.

Wolf (or the improved Parrot) can be very usefull.

But as always, they need a lot of agreement with partner on all the possible sequences.....and it's field of application.


I like to play those conventions very much, but only with a very, very regular partner, with whom I have discussed a lot.

[fromageGB]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-May-14, 08:32, said:

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-May-13, 21:01, said:
...
-- Responder can't rebid 3S ( after going thru 3C! ) to show extra length with a GF, because it is a sign-off --.

Thanks for the explanation, Don. So I don't play Wolff after all, and I can't sign off in a major partial.

[Fluffy]

I really though that the standard was to checkback with 3♣