[MrAce]

I admit that bidding 3♥ is a bit push and not considering pass was an overstatement by me. I am still bidding 3♥ eventhough i know the hand and bidding doesnt work for this one.

I think 3♠ bid is way too much by the way.

cherdano, on 2011-July-15, 02:32, said:

What kind of hand from partner are the bidders hoping for?

3♥ bidders are hoping for a lucky layout in ♠ suit to make 4, or to make 3♥ or go down 1 at worst. As i corrected my previous opinion, i know its a bit push

Kx
xx
xxxx
xxxxx


Qx
Jx
xxxx
xxxxx

QJ
xx
xxxx
xxxxx

[Phil]

One of my partners held this hand yesterday while I was kibbing "his hand". He bid 3♥, and I thought that was crazy. He disagreed, but I said I would post it on the forums, but that he should pay attention to comments from some of the senior posters like Gnasher and Han (ok, Cherdano is a good proxy ). WD (IMO) to jmcw, wellspyder, mike777 and andy_h.

I'll make the case for pass. I don't know if I will change any of the minds of the "3♥ WTP " crowd, but I hope that you will listen and understand why some really good players are passing.

1. We've already shown a good 5-6. If you don't agree, here are a few reasons:

a) We are forcing the auction to the 3 level;
b) We are bidding spades into LHO's TOx. Therefore we should have a good hand.
c) We are potentially competing for a part score, while offering up a sizable number.

2. If you accept #1 as truth, then you should realize that you've already shown a good 5-6. Partner knows this and passed over 3♦. Either partner wants to defend 3♦ or partner has no interest in bidding. Good players don't bid their partner's hand.

Here's the full layout:

{comments}

---

I thought he caught a great dummy for 3♥ (his partner should probably bid 3♥ IMO), and the contract drifted two off (there was a misclaim at the end).

3♦ looks interesting, but I think it has problems on heart, heart, diamond finesse losing, heart. If declarer draws trump, he can lose a club and pitch a spade on the 4th club, but there is still a losing heart. If declarer abandons trumps, then the defense can sacrifice their spade trick for an overruff.

Some of the comments so far are pretty amusing. I especially laughed at the implications of "we might have a game".

The best comment I've heard from the 3♥ bidders is from Mr. Ace about the wisdom of 2♠ itself and I think he has a good point. Its unusual that playing spades will be right, so why give the defense a roadmap?

[aguahombre]

gnasher, on 2011-July-15, 01:15, said:

I must be getting old. I'd pass. I've already reversed at adverse, in a fairly dangerous auction. How much less than this can I have? In the context of having bid 2♠, my spades are awful, my hearts mediocre, and my minor-suit values useless.

cherdano, on 2011-July-15, 01:20, said:

Agree with Andy (except I know that I am getting old).

Maybe this decision is one example of why we lived this long. I felt safer in Viet Nam than I do about making another call. And I have the same confidence that partner was on my side and has already made an appropriate choice.

[MrAce]

Phil and i was lurking in the lobby of BBO. So i decided to ask this hand to some very decent players and to some top worldclass players. Not that i am trying to support my 3♥ bid, regardless of what they say i am convinced that 3♥ is a bit pushy.

Phil and i was shocked with some of the replies....

TEZ (European champ and world imp pairs champ titles) : " I agree with 2♠, and i bid 3♥ now. "

UDAY : "I bid 4♥", he doesnt believe 2♠ showed exactly 6-5 but a shapely hand.

Steve Robinson : No answer

Kriztof Martens with his words copy and paste " Hi. I bid 3!H. I agree for 2!S. good luck "

Norberto Bocchi, copying and pasting his words " i'd bid 3 spades before "

Ritong : Agrees with 2♠ and bids 3♠ now.

Having posted what they said and bid, i have to say something about this hand. I believe this hand makes an illusion to the eye and makes the holder overconfident. Makes the holder forget that pd passed 1♥ initially and then passed 3♦ after our 2♠. Of course these people when answer my question, did not have the luxury to think over it a long time as we do on forums or this was irrelevant and thinking over it would not change their mind, idk. I have to admit, again, the more i think i feel myself more close to the passers than bidders even after some of the bridge gods says otherwise.

EDIT: 2 more replies

Sergey Kustarov : I would DBL now, agree with 2!S

Giorgio Duboin " I agree with 2!S and i DBL now"

[ArtK78]

3♥. Yes, I have shown a very good hand. But I am not giving up. It really doesn't take a lot to make a game. On a good day Kx xx in the majors may be enough.

On the other hand, I am not forcing the action to the 4 level by bidding 3♠. My hand is good, but it is not that good.

[xxhong]

If you usually double 2D with 4-5 in majors, extra value, then your 2S shows at least 4-6. The second pass of partner shows that he really doesn't have a good fit. With any one card for you and reasonable fit, he would bid 3H with hands like Kxx xxx xxxx xxx. What about xxx xxx xxx Qxxx, should you bid 3H to play your 9 card fit? Possible, if they don't compete further. If they compete further, you may not like to see them play 5D, which can often be made. Also, this is to assume that you may find a 9 card fit. If partner holds something like xxx xx QJx QTxxx, you may go down in 3H when they may go down in 3D. So generally, you have pretty much shown your hand and you have some defense against 3D if partner holds some cards in D, so it suggests that you should usually pass here. 3S should be bid with hands like:
AQJxx AKQxxx x x.

Phil, on 2011-July-14, 17:00, said:

♠AT532 ♥AKQ653 ♦K ♣3

Teams, r/w

1♥ - (dbl) - pass - (2♦);
2♠ - (3♦) - pass - (pass);
?

Agree with 2♠? Now what?

[Phil]

Yes, Timo and I chuckled at a few of the answers.

At first glance, this is a good hand after all. I also think that if you go over the reasons for passing that you can convince them that its right.

[han]

I'd like to vouch for my friend and junior poster cherdano.

I'd like to add that, while I agree that 2S shows a good hand, I don't think it shows a 5-6.

I'd also like to add that if south had Kxx of spades instead of Jxx then you'd make 4H.

[Tataie]

I would bid 3♥.
6-5 focused hands should never be passed that easily.
The only thing stops me from 3♠ is their x on my left but even so the game is close opposite only kxx ♠.
If he has Kxx ♠ and left opps x on only 3♠ I just gave away my win ticked.
Risky

[kayin801]

han, on 2011-July-15, 15:05, said:

I'd like to add that, while I agree that 2S shows a good hand, I don't think it shows a 5-6.

Thank you han. There's [edited nonsense, ty gnasher, tgif] probably even some 4-5 hands that we'd bid 2♠ on.

[gnasher]

han, on 2011-July-15, 15:05, said:

I'd like to add that, while I agree that 2S shows a good hand, I don't think it shows a 5-6.

I'd also like to add that if south had Kxx of spades instead of Jxx then you'd make 4H.

Spades will be 4-1 quite often, won't they?

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2011-July-15, 15:27

[gnasher]

kayin801, on 2011-July-15, 15:20, said:

Thank you han. There's some 5-5 and probably even some 4-5 hands that we'd bid 2♠ on.

Are there? Speaking for myself, there aren't any hands with 5-5 in the majors that I'd open 1♥, and it's hard to think of a 4-5 hand that would bid 2♠ rather than double.

[kayin801]

gnasher, on 2011-July-15, 15:24, said:

Are there? Speaking for myself, there aren't any hands with 5-5 in the majors that I'd open 1♥, and it's hard to think of a 4-5 hand that would bid 2♠ rather than double.

Agree on the first one, im speaking nonsense.

You'd rather X on AKJx, AKxxx, Kxx, x?

[gnasher]

kayin801, on 2011-July-15, 15:27, said:

Agree on the first one, im speaking nonsense.

You'd rather X on AKJx, AKxxx, Kxx, x?

It's true that a very strong 4531 shape might bid 2♠ (though with the pipless wonder above I would probably just go quietly). I doubt, however, that partner will play me for this shape - he is probably loking at at least three diamonds, so he knows I don't have three.

[Phil]

I retract that 2♠ promises a 5-6. I think it can show a 4-6. But a 4-6 will have compensating honor strength, and it likely doesnt affect partner's evaluation over 3♦.

[Cyberyeti]

cherdano, on 2011-July-15, 02:32, said:

What kind of hand from partner are the bidders hoping for?

Kx, Jx, xxx, xxxxxx will do nicely, but there are lots of good things partner can have, and he doesn't need much, even the same shape yarborough I have play on the likely defence and am unlikely to be doubled.

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-July-15, 17:16, said:

Kx, Jx, xxx, xxxxxx will do nicely, but there are lots of good things partner can have, and he doesn't need much, even the same shape yarborough I have play on the likely defence and am unlikely to be doubled.

With that holding, I think partner would have (should have) bid 3H voluntarily over 3D.

[dake50]

Hate 2S. I have self sufficient 6xH. Keep my shape unknown.
Doesn't the T/O Dbl have 4xS?
Jump to 3H instead of 2S.

[mtvesuvius]

dake50, on 2011-July-15, 18:08, said:

Hate 2S. I have self sufficient 6xH. Keep my shape unknown.
Doesn't the T/O Dbl have 4xS?
Jump to 3H instead of 2S.

LOL

[the hog]

Phil, on 2011-July-15, 12:33, said:

Yes, Timo and I chuckled at a few of the answers.

At first glance, this is a good hand after all. I also think that if you go over the reasons for passing that you can convince them that its right.

Maybe you don't think the players MrAce asked are any good?
Also note that had he guessed the S correctly, (extremely unlikely of course), 4S is on ice.