[Phil]

AKJx x KT8xx AJx. R/W. (Solid pro on left, client on right)

1♦ - pass - 1N - (2♥)
?

This looks like an obvious double to you and me, but you have not played with this partner for about 7 years. His card play is way ahead of his bidding, and you don't want to risk defending 2♥ when the opponents have a 9 card fit. So you choose 2♠. Partner raises to 3♠. Now?

[whereagles]

Right.

This moysian isn't a good one (ruff in the long hand)... Pard didn't bid NT so there's no heart waste. I'll go with 5♦.

[Cascade]

It must be better to investigate clubs rather than a unilateral 5♦.

[han]

Indeed, 4C is much better than 5D which is just terrible.

If partner bids 4S next I pass. My partner knows my hand and I don't know his, it's not up to me to overrule his decision.

[whereagles]

yeah you can bid 4C instead.

but I disagree as to one thing. You do know pard's hand: he doesn't have 4 spades. If he insists on spades I'm going to pull off no matter what.

[han]

Why?

[whereagles]

because of what I already said: this is a bad moysian. Unless I know pard bids 1NT with a weak side major on a regular basis, I'm not playing spades, period.

[han]

I'm expecting partner to be able to see that as well. If partner still suggests spades, it seems wrong to overrule him holding AKJx.

By the way, if partner bids 4D over 4C I pass. Maybe I should have passed 3S in the first place.

[jdeegan]

Why did pard bid 3♠? He can't be anticipating you are 5-6 in the pointed suits, so he must like the moyesian even if the 4 bagger is in the wrong hand. It sounds to me like the ♠ Qxx, the ♥ ace or a doubleton, and some fitting ♦ cards. 4♣ is a good, thoughtful, bid which ought to get you to the best spot. Before reading this thread, I would have bid 4♠ on the theory that if pard likes ♠, so do I. Passing 3♠ might work but seems anti-percentage to me. 5♦ is masterminding the hand unnecessarily and probably incorrectly.

[gnasher]

If partner has Qxx xxx AQx xxxx or Q109 Axx Ax xxxxx, is 4♠ still a bad moysian?

[jdeegan]

gnasher, on 2011-September-13, 03:35, said:

If partner has Qxx xxx AQx xxxx or Q109 Axx Ax xxxxx, is 4♠ still a bad moysian?

Even the lesser:
Q10x
Axx
QJx
10xxx
works because you can win the ♥ opening lead, knock out the ♦ ace, the discard two ♣ on the next two hearts.
Also, don't forget that opps are marked with at least nine hearts. The odds of their having ten ain't too bad. In that case, all sorts of hands will produce a decent play for 4♠.

[gnasher]

jdeegan, on 2011-September-13, 11:47, said:

Even the lesser:
Q10x
Axx
QJx
10xxx
works because you can win the ♥ opening lead, knock out the ♦ ace, the discard two ♣ on the next two hearts.

Maybe they'd duck the first diamond?

[Phil]

Pard held Qxx xxx QJ KQxxx. I decided to pass 3♠, which played ok because spades were 3-3 and I made 5. If they were 4-2, I would have made the hand if hearts were 6-3 but I would have lost to the 150's and 600's. I think +200 was a 22 out of 35.

I think pard's 3♠ is sensible, but 4♣ is much superior with my hand, because its likely partner has a max response, and a lot of useful cards in non-hearts.

[beatrix45]

Phil, on 2011-September-11, 07:08, said:

AKJx x KT8xx AJx. R/W. (Solid pro on left, client on right)

1♦ - pass - 1N - (2♥)
?

This looks like an obvious double to you and me, but you have not played with this partner for about 7 years. His card play is way ahead of his bidding, and you don't want to risk defending 2♥ when the opponents have a 9 card fit. So you choose 2♠. Partner raises to 3♠. Now?

I am trying to upgrade my bidding by learning 2/1 GF and other advance methods. You puzzle me when you say your hand is an obvious double. It makes no sense to me as a takeout double since you cant have an 8 cd spade fit and you only have three clubs the other unbid suit. What kind of hand does a double show?

Best regards,

Beatrix

[VM1973]

beatrix45, on 2011-September-13, 20:25, said:

I am trying to upgrade my bidding by learning 2/1 GF and other advance methods. You puzzle me when you say your hand is an obvious double. It makes no sense to me as a takeout double since you cant have an 8 cd spade fit and you only have three clubs the other unbid suit. What kind of hand does a double show?

Best regards,

Beatrix[/b][/b]

I believe that a lot of people here just have the agreement that all low-level doubles are takeout.

This as a takeout bid actually makes some sense in that your partner hasn't bid a suit and may well have undisclosed diamonds or clubs that you might be interested in hearing about.

They also theorize that if your partner is sitting on a stack of hearts he can pass, converting the takeout double to penalty.

[beatrix45]

VM1973, on 2011-September-14, 07:12, said:

I believe that a lot of people here just have the agreement that all low-level doubles are takeout.

This as a takeout bid actually makes some sense in that your partner hasn't bid a suit and may well have undisclosed diamonds or clubs that you might be interested in hearing about.

They also theorize that if your partner is sitting on a stack of hearts he can pass, converting the takeout double to penalty.

Thank you so very much for your kind reply. I guess our bidding style is much different here in the wilds of western Canada. We play that a 1NT response to 1 diamond denies a four card major or a legitimate diamond raise. On this hand the other side should have at least nine hearts. The take out double would not work for us because much of the time partner would bid 3 clubs, sometimes with only a four card suit.

Thanks again,

Beatrix

[gnasher]

When we make a takeout double here, we're not hoping that partner will leave it in. We can be certain that he won't, because, as you say, he can't have four hearts. Nor are we looking for a 4-4 spade fit, because again we know that there isn't one.

The rationale for playing this double as takeout is that it allows us to describe our hand better. A takeout double tells partner that we have length in both black suits. It describes a 4153, 3154 or 4144 shape (or possibly a strong hand with some other shape). By using a double to show these hands, we make our other actions better defined.

In this situation there is quite a wide range of hands where we'd want to compete. Using double to cover some of them makes all of our actions better defined, because now 2♠ and 3♣ can exclude the takeout-double type. That will make it easier for partner to judge what to do, both from a constructive point of view and in case of further competition.

For example, with no takeout double available, we have to bid 2♠ on both AKJx x K10xxx AJx and AKJx x AK10xxx xx. Similarly, we'd have to bid 3♣ on both AJx x K10xxx AKJx and xx x AK10xx AKJxx.

If double is for takeout, we'd only bid 2♠ and 3♣ on the second example in each case. Hence partner will have a better idea of what we have.

You may or may not think that this is worth the loss of a penalty double, but that's the reason for doing it. Bidding isn't just about counting how many trumps you have and seeing if it comes to eight.

[beatrix45]

gnasher, on 2011-September-15, 02:00, said:

When we make a takeout double here, we're not hoping that partner will leave it in. We can be certain that he won't, because, as you say, he can't have four hearts. Nor are we looking for a 4-4 spade fit, because again we know that there isn't one.

The rationale for playing this double as takeout is that it allows us to describe our hand better. A takeout double tells partner that we have length in both black suits. It describes a 4153, 3154 or 4144 shape (or possibly a strong hand with some other shape). By using a double to show these hands, we make our other actions better defined.

In this situation there is quite a wide range of hands where we'd want to compete. Using double to cover some of them makes all of our actions better defined, because now 2♠ and 3♣ can exclude the takeout-double type. That will make it easier for partner to judge what to do, both from a constructive point of view and in case of further competition.

For example, with no takeout double available, we have to bid 2♠ on both AKJx x K10xxx AJx and AKJx x AK10xxx xx. Similarly, we'd have to bid 3♣ on both AJx x K10xxx AKJx and xx x AK10xx AKJxx.

If double is for takeout, we'd only bid 2♠ and 3♣ on the second example in each case. Hence partner will have a better idea of what we have.

You may or may not think that this is worth the loss of a penalty double, but that's the reason for doing it. Bidding isn't just about counting how many trumps you have and seeing if it comes to eight.

Thank you for your kind and excellent response. Our big weekly event up here in the mountains is my Wednesday night 10 cent rubber bridge game. I dont think giving up the penalty double is even close to being worth it at least for us.

Best regards,

Beatrix