[luke warm]

two lesbians want to change son to daughter

[wyman]

That they are lesbians is, imo, a red herring.

[phil_20686]

wyman, on 2011-October-18, 15:57, said:

That they are lesbians is, imo, a red herring.

Perhaps or perhaps not. Parents can have a strong influence on their children. The mixture of genetic and environmental factors that influence sexuality are not understood at all. It does not seem much of a leap to believe that having parents with non-typical sexual identities would encourage children to consider non-typical sexual identities themselves.

In reality, all things in life, from taste in music through intelligence and sexuality, are a mixture of genetics and environment.

[helene_t]

It is very important that transsexual adolescents get treatment before puberty as it is impossible to reverse the puberty later.

Of course it is a serious decision that should not be taken lightly. Whether this particular child should have treatment I obviously have no opinion about. Whether the parents' position is biases by the fact that they are lesbians I obviously don't know either. But from my experience, many parents and other family members have the opposite bias.

Professor McHugh has no clue what he is talking about. They should have quoted some specialists in treatment of transsexual adolescents, not some random psychiatrist.

[Hanoi5]

I was amazed when I read the story but I guess it's all part of the liberties parents have...

[wyman]

phil_20686, on 2011-October-18, 17:30, said:

Perhaps or perhaps not. Parents can have a strong influence on their children. The mixture of genetic and environmental factors that influence sexuality are not understood at all. It does not seem much of a leap to believe that having parents with non-typical sexual identities would encourage children to consider non-typical sexual identities themselves.

In reality, all things in life, from taste in music through intelligence and sexuality, are a mixture of genetics and environment.

My point is that if this were two straight parents, people would be just as flabbergasted, but article titles include that the parents are lesbians as sort of an ad hominem attack on the parents; it's intended to invoke more shock and awe because "omg lesbian parents" and "omg they want their boy to be a girl." It's even in all caps in the story posted.

It's just silly.

I have mixed feelings about the actual issue of hormone therapy for transgendered children, and I'm happy to write it off as a question that is "above my pay grade." All I know is that I don't envy parents put in that position, especially given how much others seem to blame them.

[barmar]

I suspect the all-caps was just a typographical convention commonly used for the first few words of a story, not an intential attempt to emphasize their lesbianness. But I agree that it's somewhat prejudicial to use that in the headline -- not only are parents encouraging a sex change for a pre-pubescant child, but they're lesbians!

I disagree with the people who say the child is too young to make this kind of decision. Sexual identity is formed pretty early in development, and the story says that he has been saying he's a girl since he was 3. This is not just a phase the kid is going through. And dealing with it early seems quite appropriate.

[helene_t]

Hanoi5, on 2011-October-18, 21:32, said:

I was amazed when I read the story but I guess it's all part of the liberties parents have...

I would certainly hope not. The child needs thorough psychological testing/guidance before the decision is made. Even an adult can't just get these drugs by asking his/her GP politely. Contrasexual drugs are not over-the-counter.

I can tell you my own story. I had to move to the Netherlands, learn to speak Dutch fluently and earn credits for Dutch insurance coverage before I was even eligible for the psychological exams that precede the first treatment by at least three months (usually longer). And I was an adult, if I had been 11 it would have been impossible. OK, USA 2011 may be slightly more liberal than Denmark 1995. But contrasexual drugs remain some of the most difficult drugs to get prescription for. With good reason. I dunno about the drugs given to children but those given to adults have serious side effects.

[Fluffy]

reading the artivle it seems the child is already convinced, so parents have nothing to do with it now. It could had been that having no father caused something accidentally when he/she was 3, but that is a thing from the past now.

[wyman]

barmar, on 2011-October-18, 23:19, said:

I suspect the all-caps was just a typographical convention commonly used for the first few words of a story, not an intential attempt to emphasize their lesbianness.

It didn't even strike me that they would capitalize the first two words of the article; I only noted that it wasn't the first. Thanks for the sanity check; previous rage about that redacted.

[jjbrr]

i thought this thread would be about mark sanchez jerseys.

not really sure which is worse, tbh

[Bbradley62]

wyman, on 2011-October-19, 07:48, said:

It didn't even strike me that they would capitalize the first two words of the article; I only noted that it wasn't the first. Thanks for the sanity check; previous rage about that redacted.

From looking at their other articles, they capitalize the first word of each article, but also capitalize the second if and only if the first word is "A". (Articles starting with "AN" and "THE" do not get their second word capitalized, and I couldn't find one starting with "I".)

I wonder whether the tone of the article would have been different if the child were being raised by a straight single mother.

[barmar]

Bbradley62, on 2011-October-19, 10:32, said:

I wonder whether the tone of the article would have been different if the child were being raised by a straight single mother.

Almost certainly. Any "non-traditional" family is going to raise concerns with conservatives and make the situation more controversial. And the particular form of non-traditionalism will result in different tone. And even if the newspaper is liberal, it's still going to affect the tone of the article -- they'll feel the need to be PC or defend the parents.

There's no such thing as objective reporting.

[Elianna]

wyman, on 2011-October-18, 15:57, said:

That they are lesbians is, imo, a red herring.

I completely agree with you.

That article was making it about the parents, not the child.

The one thing I will say, is that it is likely that the fact that the parents have had to think about their own sexuality (unlike most heterosexual people, who are not confronted by their differences as a matter of course in society) are more open to their child having alternate thoughts.

I don't think that giving the child puberty-delaying drugs is abuse by any means. In fact, I might be more convinced that NOT giving THIS child puberty-delaying drugs is abuse. This way he has more time (and hopefully more cognitive growth and therapy) to work out what is the right choice for him.

[barmar]

Isn't cognitive growth part of puberty? Could the drugs prevent his brain from maturing sufficiently that we'd consider him competent to make the decision?

[helene_t]

barmar, on 2011-October-19, 19:43, said:

Isn't cognitive growth part of puberty? Could the drugs prevent his brain from maturing sufficiently that we'd consider him competent to make the decision?

Interesting question.

AFAICS most research on the role of sex hormones i.r.t. brain development during puberty has focused on the influence of pre-natal exposure to testosterone. However there is also some evidence that variation in hormone exposure during puperty influcences cognitive development, in particular w.r.t. masculine traits such as risk-willingness.

I think this a a decent source:
https://www.msu.edu/...5_Frontiers.pdf

[sasioc]

It appears to me that this child has been living as female for a significant amount of time and identifying as female for longer. It doesn't sound to me like she is "unsure about her gender" at all. If there was more uncertainty I might feel that drugs were less appropriate but as it is I can't think of any circumstance that would make me feel that prescription of these drugs was more appropriate in this case. I agree with the assessment that I think it is closer to child abuse to deny Tammy this treatment than to give it. I am only glad that she has parents open-minded enough to consider such strong measures as they make the decision with Tammy about what is in her best interests (and yes, an 11 year old certainly should be heavily involved in such a decision.).

[luke warm]

wyman, on 2011-October-18, 15:57, said:

That they are lesbians is, imo, a red herring.

in the sense that it plays no part in the decision?

sasioc, on 2011-October-20, 10:22, said:

(and yes, an 11 year old certainly should be heavily involved in such a decision.).

is 11 too young for a child to make any potentially life-changing decisions, or just those concerning sexuality?

[wyman]

luke warm, on 2011-October-20, 14:11, said:

in the sense that it plays no part in the decision?


is 11 too young for a child to make any potentially life-changing decisions, or just those concerning sexuality?

@ Q1: In the sense that it's entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Presumably, the issue at hand is whether or not it's ethical to prescribe puberty-delaying drugs to TG children. The child's parents could be gay, straight, or inter-species, and the problem doesn't change.

@ Q2: I have a really hard time with a lot of these issues, but I think that out of the whole pile of putative solutions, puberty-delaying drugs, if safe, at least buy the child a few more years.

I'm not saying this is a good solution. I'm just saying that it has to be easier to solve the problem of "what potentially life-changing decisions can we make with a 15 year old" than "what potentially life-changing decisions can we make with an 11 year old."

Again, I don't envy the parents. Or the child.

[luke warm]

wyman, on 2011-October-20, 14:32, said:

@ Q1: In the sense that it's entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Presumably, the issue at hand is whether or not it's ethical to prescribe puberty-delaying drugs to TG children. The child's parents could be gay, straight, or inter-species, and the problem doesn't change.

ideally, that would be the case... if their lesbianism does play a role, *that* would be child abuse... but i suppose they deserve the benefit of the doubt in this

as for 11 being too young, i think we can all agree it's too young for a whole passel of decisions... that this isn't one of them, to most people posting, seems a little surprising to me... heck, i know parents who won't let their 11/12 year old sons play football