[hrothgar]

 FrancesHinden, on 2011-December-31, 11:14, said:

Most people love these as the format for a one-day event, because
(i) you get green points for winning matches, not just final ranking
(ii) they are much more random than most alternative possible formats, so more people have a chance of winning something.

Soon, we'll be able to dispense with the whole nastiness of playing bridge and simply sell master points directly for cash...

I suspect that the ACBL, the EBU and the players base would both find this enormously more convenient.

[BunnyGo]

 FrancesHinden, on 2011-December-31, 11:14, said:

(i) you get green points for winning matches, not just final ranking

Are 'green points' in England the same as what they are in the US ('green points' = $$), or are there actual green points similar to our gold points?

[FrancesHinden]

The latter (at least I would guess so). You get 'black' or 'local' points playing in club events or minor county and some national events. You get green points for playing in major county and national events. Masterpoint ranks need a total number of points, of which (for most ranks) some must be green.

To complicate matters, the EBU also calculates 'gold points'. Originally these were based on 5 greens = 1 gold but you have to win them in one event (so 6 greens in one event = 1.2 golds, but 4 greens + 2 greens = 0 golds). Then they started awarding them in the premier league without the associated greenies. Gold points are used only for seeding purposes.

[cherdano]

 FrancesHinden, on 2012-January-01, 08:53, said:

The latter (at least I would guess so). You get 'black' or 'local' points playing in club events or minor county and some national events. You get green points for playing in major county and national events. Masterpoint ranks need a total number of points, of which (for most ranks) some must be green.

To complicate matters, the EBU also calculates 'gold points'. Originally these were based on 5 greens = 1 gold but you have to win them in one event (so 6 greens in one event = 1.2 golds, but 4 greens + 2 greens = 0 golds). Then they started awarding them in the premier league without the associated greenies. Gold points are used only for seeding purposes.

See, things in the ACBL are so much easier. We just have platinum points, and gold points, and red points, and silver points, and black points. No online points anymore though. Oh and seeding points for the USBF. Oh, and Blue ribbon qualfiers. Oh, and NABC+ wins (needed for GLM).

[ArtK78]

 ggwhiz, on 2011-December-28, 09:45, said:

Purely on-line poker players don't have the same status as face to face players either nor should they.

 JLOGIC, on 2011-December-29, 12:07, said:

Not sure if serious.

This was certainly true until the many successes of online poker players in major events. And I would say that most traditional poker players grant respect to online players on a case-by-case basis based on success in brick and mortar tournaments.

[paulg]

 BunnyGo, on 2012-January-01, 07:59, said:

Are 'green points' in England the same as what they are in the US ('green points' = $), or are there actual green points similar to our gold points?

 FrancesHinden, on 2012-January-01, 08:53, said:

The latter (at least I would guess so). You get 'black' or 'local' points playing in club events or minor county and some national events. You get green points for playing in major county and national events. Masterpoint ranks need a total number of points, of which (for most ranks) some must be green.

To complicate matters, the EBU also calculates 'gold points'. Originally these were based on 5 greens = 1 gold but you have to win them in one event (so 6 greens in one event = 1.2 golds, but 4 greens + 2 greens = 0 golds). Then they started awarding them in the premier league without the associated greenies. Gold points are used only for seeding purposes.

National points (which are, confusingly, Green in England and Red in Scotland) cover an increasingly wide spectrum of events that would cover red, gold and platinum awards in ACBL events and even some silver awards (in a very limited way).

The Scots also used to have gold points, similar to the EBU, but these have fallen into disrepute not least because of the generous awards of some minor events.

[jillybean]

 cherdano, on 2012-January-01, 09:04, said:

See, things in the ACBL are so much easier. We just have platinum points, and gold points, and red points, and silver points, and black points. No online points anymore though. Oh and seeding points for the USBF. Oh, and Blue ribbon qualfiers. Oh, and NABC+ wins (needed for GLM).

You forgot Red ribbon qualifers.

[Siegmund]

Quote

See, things in the ACBL are so much easier. We just have platinum points, and gold points, and red points, and silver points, and black points. No online points anymore though.

But we do still have online points. They are still going to be colorless, not black, and still not count towards Ace of Clubs, as far as I can tell - the only thing that changed about online points is that all of them count towards one's rank.

[cherdano]

Sorry that I made things appear even simpler than they are.

[aguahombre]

Would it be best if the whole system were pointless, colorless, and tasteless?

[billw55]

 aguahombre, on 2012-January-02, 07:26, said:

Would it be best if the whole system were pointless, colorless, and tasteless?

Some might argue that is in fact pointless

[jeffford76]

 mycroft, on 2011-December-30, 10:45, said:

This is almost certainly the reason that open qualifier-and-final games have all but disappeared from the calendar in the ACBL.

I find this a pity - it used to be the standard Saturday game at our sectionals, and my first "step up" bridge memory was the first time I qualified for the final. In next-to-last place, and we got hammered in the evening, but just qualifying was an achievement. I think a lot of people miss out on that kind of low-level achievement (it's just not the same as "first in C" or "first in B" or whatever). I try to play in it whenever I see it (and am not working the game), because I want to keep it around!

The events that get run at ACBL sectionals are up to the units running the tournaments. If you (generic, not mycroft specifically) want to see a particular event, either convince your local board, or run for a position.

In Seattle we did a revamp of our sectionals a couple years ago to add variety to the schedule. Over the course of the four sectionals we have a 1 and 2 session BAM, a two session qualifier pairs, an IMP pairs, and a four session KO in addition to the normal 1-2 session MP pairs and 2-session Swiss games.

We also have several 0-750 and 0-2000 events that have greatly increased attendance in that crowd.

[mycroft]

Well, it might be time for the pendulum to swing back...

The problem is that the stratified games are the only way to keep the large body of B players playing against the As. For instance, that Seattle tournament list; I'm betting that in order to get the good variety of games, they *needed* those 0-750 and 0-2000 games (and, of course, the size to make all those games work).

I don't think that the rank-and-file Bs actually *want* to ever play against the "good players" - they didn't want to when they had 500, and they still don't want to when they have 1100, 1600, 1950,...

But, yeah, pushing for more different games by the Tournament Organisers is a good start.

[vuroth]

 ggwhiz, on 2011-December-28, 09:45, said:

Those coloured point requirements are REALLY easy and shouldn't hold anyone back unless they are under house arrest.

I understand what you're saying, but I bet it would be easier for me to get 50 points online than 5 silver points.

I have no problem with the ACBL holding the fact that I have 0 silver points over my head, holding me back. It's not going to motivate me to attend sectionals or even club games, but I suspect it works on most of the membership, which is fine.

[wyman]

 ggwhiz, on 2011-December-28, 09:45, said:

Those coloured point requirements are REALLY easy and shouldn't hold anyone back unless they are under house arrest.

Purely on-line poker players don't have the same status as face to face players either nor should they.

 JLOGIC, on 2011-December-29, 12:07, said:

Not sure if serious.

 ArtK78, on 2012-January-01, 10:45, said:

This was certainly true until the many successes of online poker players in major events. And I would say that most traditional poker players grant respect to online players on a case-by-case basis based on success in brick and mortar tournaments.

Perhaps this is best discussed in another thread, but since we're here...

In poker, the scorecard is measured in dollars, so an online player need not be concerned about the opinion of a B&M player -- or any player for that matter -- whereas bridge achievements (at least the ones in question) are pretty much only to stick on the refrigerator, so if a large portion of the community discounts your achievement, this somehow tarnishes it.

However, in my experience, only the terrible B&M players discount the achievements of online players these days. Online players see so many more hands/situations, and they have the technology to analyze stats and ranges at their fingertips. Obviously you lose the software when you move to B&M, but many things that you've quantified with your software become instinctive after seeing them enough times -- sort of like how bridge experts just know the right way to play a suit without thinking about it.

[ArtK78]

 vuroth, on 2012-January-10, 07:59, said:

I understand what you're saying, but I bet it would be easier for me to get 50 points online than 5 silver points.

Getting 5 silver points is so absurdly easy that it barely moves the bridge skill needle.

However, if by easier you mean that it is easier to log onto BBO and earn online points than it is to drive to a sectional and play, yes, it is easier to earn the online points.

[mycroft]

In certain places (and the NJ/NY corridor is not one of them, sorry ArtK) silver points are *absurdly* difficult to get (well, 50 of them, anyway; 5 I agree with). We have 4 sectionals a year - this time, the two-session 0-1000 pairs payed 4.something *to win*, and the two-session 0-1000 teams payed 5.02. The nearest next sectional (2 of them) is a two-hour drive, and likely pays 7 to win the two-session *open* pairs. The nearest next is three hours away, there are 4 of those, and they're smaller than ours here in Calgary. After that (and a couple 3 hours the other way), you're leaving the province - a province you could dump the entire New England megalopolis into and never notice (even the southern, "populated" end).

If one is willing to go to Penticton and play in Bracket 7, 8 of 9 all week, you can likely, with ordinary results, make your 25G-25R/G in two years (not counting the other couple of regionals you could go to). But that's an 8-hour drive, and we're lucky it's for some reason really popular, and the largest regional in Canada. If the average NLM makes more than 5 SP a year (and most of those are .20/match on Sundays) I'd be surprised. The best NLMs are different, of course, but it's still harder to get 50 silver than 50 red-or-gold.

[jeffford76]

 mycroft, on 2012-January-04, 17:03, said:

The problem is that the stratified games are the only way to keep the large body of B players playing against the As. For instance, that Seattle tournament list; I'm betting that in order to get the good variety of games, they *needed* those 0-750 and 0-2000 games (and, of course, the size to make all those games work).

This is certainly true for some of the events. We weren't going to run a qualifying pairs which by rule can't be stratified without something in parallel for the B players who would stay home rather than play without strats. Similarly although the BAM is stratified, we found that a lot of the B players were more comfortable playing pairs or Swiss.

[ggwhiz]

 ArtK78, on 2012-January-10, 08:49, said:

Getting 5 silver points is so absurdly easy that it barely moves the bridge skill needle.

We have a New Zealand transplant in Canada that won 3 (I believe) National Championships before making life master.

Her local berg had a once a week 7 table game and she couldn't get black points. Every time she visited and played in clubs here they announced a special game with silver, red, gold whatever points and she would scream Damn!

[ArtK78]

 mycroft, on 2012-January-10, 11:30, said:

In certain places (and the NJ/NY corridor is not one of them, sorry ArtK) silver points are *absurdly* difficult to get (well, 50 of them, anyway; 5 I agree with). We have 4 sectionals a year - this time, the two-session 0-1000 pairs payed 4.something *to win*, and the two-session 0-1000 teams payed 5.02. The nearest next sectional (2 of them) is a two-hour drive, and likely pays 7 to win the two-session *open* pairs. The nearest next is three hours away, there are 4 of those, and they're smaller than ours here in Calgary. After that (and a couple 3 hours the other way), you're leaving the province - a province you could dump the entire New England megalopolis into and never notice (even the southern, "populated" end).

If one is willing to go to Penticton and play in Bracket 7, 8 of 9 all week, you can likely, with ordinary results, make your 25G-25R/G in two years (not counting the other couple of regionals you could go to). But that's an 8-hour drive, and we're lucky it's for some reason really popular, and the largest regional in Canada. If the average NLM makes more than 5 SP a year (and most of those are .20/match on Sundays) I'd be surprised. The best NLMs are different, of course, but it's still harder to get 50 silver than 50 red-or-gold.

I guess I am spoiled. To me, the fact that I am in Atlantic City and have to drive an hour to reach Philadelphia or 2 1/2 hours to reach New York City is an imposition. I didn't bother to attend a sectional in suburban Philadelphia last weekend as it would have been more than an hour trip for me. You have much more difficult problems.

Of course, I never needed silver points, having become a life master in 1977. Not that it would have been a problem to get them. According to my masterpoint total on the ACBL website, I have over 1100 silver points, and I won a lot of points at sectionals before silver points were invented.

I also learned to write by using a chisel on stone.