[bluecalm]

So there are two ideas in the sequence:

1S - 1NT
2C* - 2D**

* - 11-15nat or 16+any
** - 8+, relay

One is that 2S is now weak and strong hands has 2H and higher bid at their disposal.
2nd idea is that 2H is weak and strong hands start with 2S.

With the 1st one it's easy to pack all the shapes including 5-5's and I am familiar with such scheme from Bocchi-Duboin system.
2nd scheme has advantage of being able to pass 2H with hearts but packing up shapes is difficult.
I pulled all vugraph hands bid by Lauria-Versace in the sequence but I still can't see how they handle 5-5 hands in 16-17 range (or 5-5 majors in 16-21 range). They have ways to bid every 5-4-3-1 and every 5-4-2-2 in either 16-18 or 19-21 ranges but there just isn't enough space for 5-5's.
For example:

1S - 1N
2C - 2D
3C = 5-4 majors, 16-18
3D = relay
and now they show 5-4-3-1/5-4-1-3/5-4-2-2
but going above 3nt with 5-5 might not be the best idea. Maybe responder doesn't bid his relay if he doesn't want to hear 4level response ? Maybe there is other solution ? Could anyone help with it ?
I can provide rest of the structure I arrived to if anybody is interested.

[mgoetze]

What's 1S-1N-2N?

[glen]

See: LV's cc

1♥-1♠/1NT-2♣ = nat or any strong hand
1♥-1♠/1NT-2NT = strong with 6♥s and 4+minor
1♥-1♠/1NT-3♣/3♦ = strong with 5+♥s and 5+minor

[straube]

I think you ought to post the rest of the structure if you want help with the gaps. For instance, do they have to account for 5332s? Do they open 15-17 5S332s with 1S?

[glen]

straube, on 2012-February-07, 20:45, said:

... Do they open 15-17 5S332s with 1S?

Are they Italian?

[awm]

Well I don't know exactly what Bocchi/Duboin play, but in Garozzo's version the 2♥ bid is used to show 15-16 (clubs or balanced). This helps you find your 16-9 games and such, which is in general a problem hand when opening 1♠ on a balanced 15-16.

[bluecalm]

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What's 1S-1N-2N?

As Glen posted. Then relay is used to show 6S-4C/D and range 16-18 or 19+

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Do they open 15-17 5S332s with 1S?

They always open 1M with that shape (which is kinda interesting as it forces them to game with 15 opposite 8 every time but I guess they declarer well...)

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but in Garozzo's version the 2♥ bid is used to show 15-16 (clubs or balanced).

Bocchi - Duboin played that 2♥ is 5S-3+H, 16+; 2S is 5S-4+C 11-15; 2NT is transfer to 5S-4+C and they relay for rest, 3C is 5S-4D or 5S-5D and relay for rest, 3H is 6S-3H, 3S is 6+S without 3H.
The problem here is that it's useful to have 2♥ as the weak bid (you need one 2H or 2S). First it makes the structure almost completely symmetrical with 1H - 1N where 2H has to be used as weak, second it allows you pass 2H with say: x-JT8xxx-AKx-Jxx or even 1-5-4-3.

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I think you ought to post the rest of the structure if you want help with the gaps.

Ok here is what I have from my reverse engineering effort:
(I will call ranges: 16-18 and 19+ but in practice they often bid as 15-17 and 18+)

1S - 1N
2C - 2D (any 8+)
 2H - all weak hands (so 5S-4+C, 11-15hcp)
 2S - 19+, 2N R:
  3C - 5-4+ majors
  3D - 5-3-(1-4)
  3H - 5+S-3H (next 3S asks for 6th spade)
  3S - 5-2-4-2
  3N - 5-2-2-4
 2N - max 2 hearts, 3C®:
  3D - 5-1-(3-4) 19+
  3H - 5+s, one-suited (then 3S asks for 6th spade and I guess opener could cuebid with stronger hand)
  3S - 5-1-4-3 16-18
  3N - 5-1-3-4 16-18
 3C - 5-4majors, 16-18 and 3D relay for shortness
 3D = 5-3-(4-1) 16-18
 3H = 16-18 5+S-3H
 3S = 5-2-4-2 16-18
 3N = 5-2-2-4 16-18

As you can see it's tightly packed.
I think all of those bids came up but sometimes there was no alert on vugraph so I might have guessed wrongly what relay really is but from general logic of the system it looks to me that's the structure. 5-4-2-2 bids all came up explained as such as did one suited with/without 3H.
Unfortunately the only 5-5 hands in 16-17 range which came up on vugraph had stiff honor somewhere and they treated it as 5-4-2-2.

So problematic hands are:
5-5 majors 16-18, 19+
6-4 majors 16-18 and 19+
5-5 spades+minor exactly 16-17

I guess first two are in 3C (direct or after 2S) and then maybe somehow responder doesn't relay for shortness if he doesn't want to hear 4 level response ? I have no idea, not enough hands on vugraph
Btw:
1S - 1N
3S - is 14-16 distributional invite (mosto of the time 7+spades)

and:
1S - 1N
3H is again 14-16 distributional invite but this time with 3H.

That leaves us with the last free sequence:
1S - 1N
3N which I guess is 19-21 exacactly 5-2-3-3 which somehow didn't open 2NT as that's the only non 5-5/6-4 shape not represented in structure above.

[han]

We also play that 2H is the weak hand. Besides being able to play there, this can lead to some other nice auctions such as 1S - 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2H - 2S - 3S = 14-15 with 6-4 in the black suits.

Our complete structure is as follows:

1S - 1NT
2NT: GF with either any 5-5, or 6-4 with a 4-card minor.

3C asks and then:

3D = 5-5 with a minor
3H = 5-5 with hearts
3S = 6-4 with clubs
3NT = 6-4 with diamonds

After 1S - 1NT - 2C - 2D we play:

2H = 4 clubs, less than 16 HCP.
2S = 16+, either exactly 3 hearts or 6-4 in the majors
2NT = as a direct 2NT but weaker (16-17), same follow ups
3C = 5-4 majors, 16+. 3D asks about shape.
3D = 5-4 with a 4-card minor, fewer than 3 hearts. 3H asks for the minor
3H = 6133
3S = 62(32)
3NT = 5233

After 1S - 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2S (3 hearts) 2NT asks further:

3C = 6-4 in the majors, 3D asks and then 3H shows a minimum (16-17) and higher steps show a maximum with shape.
3D = A 4-card minor (and 3 hearts), 3H asks for minor.
3H = 63(31)
3S = 6322
3NT = 53(32)

As you can see, there is a lot of symmetry between direct and delayed responses. Another advantage of using 2H for the weak hands is that the structure is exactly identical to the 1H - 1NT structure, where 2H obviously also shows the weak hands.

Obviously we cannot show everything. We have chosen to only distinguish between 16-17 and super strong hands when we hold 6-4 or 5-5 shape, as we think that these hands have the most slam potential.

[glen]

Although this is not perfect, it gives good framework for discussion:

GazzilliND.pdf

Depending on your skills with Italian and/or google translate:

gazzilli.htm

The Jacobs played a lot with the Italians a few years back, and Stacy was kind enough to post notes here:

major-suit-openings

In other system news, Bramley-Stansby will be Meckwell lite, which just has Justin left to convince Hamman (or use Schenken Lite?, and "random update" here: justinlall.com), and maybe Martel/Zia could use Kokish/Nagy weak NT big club system?

[mgoetze]

glen, on 2012-February-08, 08:57, said:

Although this is not perfect, it gives good framework for discussion:

Well... "not perfect" is more polite than I would have put it but yeah...

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In other system news, Bramley-Stansby will be Meckwell lite,

Darn, I was hoping for Bramley to continue championing the T-Walsh cause.

[bluecalm]

Damn I really hope this thread won't die and someone chimes in with:
"We played against LV and they told us what they do with 5-5"
I have some more questions regarding their system (which is truly awesome). C'mon guys

I kinda like Han's structure but I think I like LV's more (even if I improvise some relay breaking to deal with 5-5majors hands) because showing those stiffs is really useful in solving 4M/3N/5m dillema.
Funny that every link has different version of that, here is one more:

http://www.pescarabr...vio_fantoni.htm

but I want to know what "the pros" play !

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In other system news, Bramley-Stansby will be Meckwell lite,

It really looks like precision is gaining momentum.
2 out of 3 pairs in BB winning Netherlands squad, more and more US pairs. Soon it will be only Italian pairs defending 11-22 openings at the highest level and just when I started to like them...

[han]

I agree that showing stiffs is very useful, not only for picking the best game but also for finding slams. We can show stiffs sometimes, for example when we are 5-4 or 6-4 in the majors, or 6(331), or when 5341/5314, but there are also a fair number of shapes where we can't. You can't do everything, and when you use 2H for a minimum instead of 2S then you can distinguish fewer hand types. Perhaps instead of what we do it is better to show only 16+ points and not bother about showing whether you have a true maximum. If you do that then you are able to show a few more shapes than we can. Although I think that that might be better, I'm happy with my structure (mostly about the fact that we both know it well) so I'm so not eager to change it.

I do think that all of these artificial schemes are much better than "natural". In fact, if you are going to play "natural", I think you may be better off not playing Gazilli.

My teammates this week missed a laydown slam when their auction started

1H - 1NT
2C (Gazilli)- 2D (8+)
3C

3C showed 16+ points and at least 5-4, and apart from being in a GF auction there were no further agreements.

Look at how far behind you are compared to the standard auction that occured at some other table:

1H - 1NT
2C - 2S (maximal hand with club support)

Now opener (who had quite a nice 5-5) had enough to drive to 6C.

This strengthened my belief that if you are not willing to put in some effort you are probably better off not playing such conventions.

[ceex09]

After reading the Gazilli discussion above, i arises other questions.

It seems that Gazilli can shows the shape and strength of the opener effectively but tells nth on the responder.
So what should be the later auctions after telling all the shape and strength? Cue-bidding seems not so effective as only one side is conveying information. Does it need some relays for controls/high cards just like some relay systems?
any relevant examples from the world championship players?

Thank you

[glen]

Board 14 gives an example of breaking the relays to show a long suit:
http://www.bridgebas...ch.php?id=21545

Board 17, Swedes use a jump to show exactly 6-2-3-2:
http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?linurl=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/vugraph_linfetch.php?id=20636

Board 8, Garner-Weinstein break relays to show long suit:
http://www.bridgebas...ch.php?id=10132

Board 109, Garner-Weinstein break relays to show natural:
http://www.bridgebas...ch.php?id=14473

[glen]

Board 19:
http://www.bridgefed...11/wtc/R18A.PHP

LV's 2♠ shows a four card minor 16+, 2NT asks, and 3S shows exactly 2-5-4-2

[glen]

Board 19, Fantunes who use their ranges:
http://www.bridgebas...ch.php?id=11023

2♣=natural 13/14-17 or 17/18+, 2♦=6-9, 2♠=3 or 4 ♠s, 2NT=asks, 3♠=4♠s

[the_clown]

What I play is the following

1S-1N-2C-2D

Now 2H is artificial and shows 17+HCP and any 4card side suit (or 4C 15-16). 2S ask about the suit.

2S is min balanced or 5S4C 11-14
2NT is 18-19 NT (we open 1N with a 5card major)
3x shows 5-5 and 17+

Works very well for me.

[bluecalm]

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LV's 2♠ shows a four card minor 16+, 2NT asks, and 3S shows exactly 2-5-4-2

Heh, I am happy this is what my reversed engineered structure above shows

One more thing I've noticed that while they play:
1M - 1S/1N
3C as strong, they raise with weak hands for example:

1S - 1N
3D - 4D with 95 A7532 985 T87 in recent Spingold semifinal which make me wonder if it's possible to play jumps as 16+ having weak respondes 3S/4D and show GF by 3rd suit or 3NT. I think that might be unplayable though because of skipping 3nt with weakish hand opposite monster.

[bluecalm]

So I digged in vugraph arcvhives a bit deeper and I found Versace - Gubilo hand where in fact they bid:

1S 1N
2C 2D
3C 3D
4C with 5-5 majors

So it looks like only hands with could handle 5-5's and 6-4 should bid 3D. That leaves us with 3 ways to break the relay:
3H, 3S, 3N

3N is obvious, just stoppers in minors and leave me here please.
3H and 3S... I think there are two reasonable ways. One is to show a minor which we don't want to play opposite shortness (3H = clubs 3S = diamonds) or 2nd is to to bid 3S if we want to be in spade game opposite 6th spade and 3H as 4 hearts and strong.
I think 2nd way must be better as 3H bid, especially opposite 19+ could be very helpful.

Fortunately no matter what we choose here we are miles ahead of standard in every case but with those 5-5/6-4 hands we are behind Han's structure.

[Free]

The main advantages of playing 2♥ as minimum is to be able to play there (which can turn out badly as well ofcourse), and to have a symmetric structure after both 1M openings. However, if you play 2♠ minimum, then you can overload 2♥ and have more space for strong hands. 2♥ is lower than 2♠, so you can put more hands in there (which is necessary btw, because you have for example 5-5M which you don't have after 1♥ openings). It's all about what you prefer.