[JLOGIC]

x KQJTxx xxx Axx

V/V imps.

You open 1H playing precision, 1S X 2S ? You do not play good/bad so your options are 3H or pass.

For a more system/theory oriented discussion, say it goes:

1H 1S X 2S
3H 3S ?

You play kickback normally. What are the meanings of 4C, 4D, 4S, and 4N?

[bluecalm]

1) 3H
I think it got passed around too often on hands where we belong to 3H

2)I have no experience nor any thoughts about playing kickback so I leave it to people who do

[Valardent]

Without specific agreement, 4m must be taken as natural competitive NF ; 6-4 or the like

4♠ is pbbly meant as kickback in ♥ and 4NT as pick a minor with a 5-5 or 6-5 shape that couldn't bid 2m on 1♠

[gnasher]

(1) I bid 3♥)

(2) 4♣ and 4♦ sound like cue-bids to me, because a natural interpretation seems impossible. With a game-force partner would have bid his suit over 1♠; with a weaker 6-4 I think he'd either pass or bid 4♥. I don't play Kickback, so I can't comment about 4♠ and 4NT.

[jallerton]

JLOGIC, on 2012-February-19, 04:34, said:

x KQJTxx xxx Axx

V/V imps.

You open 1H playing precision, 1S X 2S ? You do not play good/bad so your options are 3H or pass.

For a more system/theory oriented discussion, say it goes:

1H 1S X 2S
3H 3S ?

You play kickback normally. What are the meanings of 4C, 4D, 4S, and 4N?

I bid 3♥. With such a good suit (playable opposite a void!), I need to tell partner the good news. The great thing about playing Precision is that partner won't be expecting a 16-count for bids like this. If I pass then bid 3♥ on the next round partner should expect a worse suit.

To some extent the meanings of 4♣/♦ now depend on what types of hand you include within double of 1♠. The way I play, if partner's club suit is good enough to introduce at the 4-level to fight against my voluntarily rebid major suit, he would have bid it on the first round (or possibly passed with a weak hand and a very long suit). With 6-5 in the minors and reasonable values he would also normally start by bidding one of them first. Therefore 4♣/♦ has to agree hearts in some manner. Whether that be a source of tricks or just a cue bid is a matter of partnership style.

If you play Kickback, you need concrete agreements as to when it applies (even the occasional misunderstading figures to lose than the theoretical gain from playing such a method). Theoretically, I think 4♠ ought to be Kickback and 4NT becomes a substitute spade cue bid (or whatever 4♠ would mean if Kickback did not apply).

[fromageGB]

If you play 4♠ as kickback then 4NT could be exclusion blackwood in spades. Doesn't seem likely though with the opponents' muted spade calls, and "pick a minor" is my guess.

[bluecalm]

Quote

The great thing about playing Precision is that partner won't be expecting a 16-count for bids like this.

Why would 16count bid like that in standard though ? I mean, we have double available so we use it with nice 15/ 16+ count or if we don't want to dbl we just bid 4H. I mean, if you bid 3H with 16 partner passes with 8 which is a disaster as you have 24count and 6-2 hearts.

[JLOGIC]

I bid 3H at the table without giving it much thought. I was convinced last night by Fred that pass is probably right. I think bidding 3H will force us to too many bad games when partner bids 4, and it is a very unlikely target that 2S gets passed out when 3H would have gotten passed out and both make exactly. As far as buying it in 3H, passing and bidding 3H is probably a better way to do it.

I was thinking if I pass and bid 3H, my partner is going to pass with like a stiff heart and a lot of points (like a 12 count), and that that would be bad since my suit is so good as jallerton said. But in thinking about some hands for partner that don't even include that much wastage in spades, that's usually a good thing not a bad thing, 4H is not great opposite most hands I came up with.

Quote

(2) 4♣ and 4♦ sound like cue-bids to me, because a natural interpretation seems impossible. With a game-force partner would have bid his suit over 1♠; with a weaker 6-4 I think he'd either pass or bid 4♥

Quote

To some extent the meanings of 4♣/♦ now depend on what types of hand you include within double of 1♠. The way I play, if partner's club suit is good enough to introduce at the 4-level to fight against my voluntarily rebid major suit, he would have bid it on the first round (or possibly passed with a weak hand and a very long suit). With 6-5 in the minors and reasonable values he would also normally start by bidding one of them first. Therefore 4♣/♦ has to agree hearts in some manner.

Yes, I am in this camp. If 4 of a minor were NATURAL, then I think that 4N would be a slam try with a spade control, 5H a slam try without a spade control, and 4S kickback. Even with 4 of a minor as a cue, 4N might still be a spade cue with no minor suit control even though that is almost impossible, since no other meaning makes much sense either be it exclusion (what is your shape that you started with double?) or natural

[whereagles]

JLOGIC, on 2012-February-19, 04:34, said:

1. x KQJTxx xxx Axx
1S X 2S ? You do not play good/bad so your options are 3H or pass.

2.
1H 1S X 2S
3H 3S ?
You play kickback normally. What are the meanings of 4C, 4D, 4S, and 4N?

1. I have short spades, so I bid. 3H. Not ideal, but since slam is unlikely this slight overbid can be helpful.

Justin: I've played strong club systems for like 6 years and this sort of stuff (opener wanting to bid with a min) came up quite often. I think 2NT as good/bad (well, bad only) is a possible way out. Remember that in standard 2NT good/bad splits min from med hands. The max variant is pretty rare. No reason not to extend that to precision.

2. Not playing kickback: 4m = natural (some 6-4), 4S = cue, 4NT = RKCB. With kickback I'd say 4m natural but I'm not sure about the rest.

[bluecalm]

Quote

and it is a very unlikely target that 2S gets passed out when 3H would have gotten passed out and both make exactly

The target is a bit wider. They could bid 3S which is a win for us if 2S made but 3S doesn't regardless if 3H would make.
I am not rejecting possibility that pass might be best, I just want to point out that quoted text is not honest presentation of the problem.

[rhm]

JLOGIC, on 2012-February-19, 14:47, said:

I bid 3H at the table without giving it much thought. I was convinced last night by Fred that pass is probably right. I think bidding 3H will force us to too many bad games when partner bids 4, and it is a very unlikely target that 2S gets passed out when 3H would have gotten passed out and both make exactly. As far as buying it in 3H, passing and bidding 3H is probably a better way to do it.

I was thinking if I pass and bid 3H, my partner is going to pass with like a stiff heart and a lot of points (like a 12 count), and that that would be bad since my suit is so good as jallerton said. But in thinking about some hands for partner that don't even include that much wastage in spades, that's usually a good thing not a bad thing, 4H is not great opposite most hands I came up with.

....

Sounds to me a good advertisement to open this hand with a weak two in the first place.

Rainer Herrmann

[benlessard]

WTP 3H.

I think a free 3H red should show a suit good enough that you dont try to signoff in a partscore in another strain. So I prefer 4C to be cuebid with at least 2H rather than both m. 4S is kickback and 4NT is unclear playing standard, (S void, 0265/0256 i guess).

Note that its a perfect weak 2 opening for me.

[JLOGIC]

rhm, on 2012-February-20, 08:30, said:

Sounds to me a good advertisement to open this hand with a weak two in the first place.

Rainer Herrmann

Certainly possible, I thought the HT made it too good, also being 6331 instead of 6322.

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2012-February-19, 14:47, said:

I bid 3H at the table without giving it much thought. I was convinced last night by Fred that pass is probably right. I think bidding 3H will force us to too many bad games when partner bids 4, and it is a very unlikely target that 2S gets passed out when 3H would have gotten passed out and both make exactly. As far as buying it in 3H, passing and bidding 3H is probably a better way to do it.

Fred's views command respect, of course, but I don't agree with him.

If you pass, it has several ways to lose:
- You may get to defend 2♠.
- If partner doubles 2♠ you won't know how many hearts to bid.
- You let LHO distinguish between a competitive 3♠ and an invitation.
- If LHO bids 3♠ and partner doubles or bids 3NT, you'll have to bid 4♥, so you lose any chance of getting to 3NT or 3♠x when it's right, and you lose space for exploring slam.

If you bid 3♥ and partner bids game, it has several ways to win:
- It may make
- It may be a save against their 3♠
- They may save

Quote

I was thinking if I pass and bid 3H, my partner is going to pass with like a stiff heart and a lot of points (like a 12 count), and that that would be bad since my suit is so good as jallerton said. But in thinking about some hands for partner that don't even include that much wastage in spades, that's usually a good thing not a bad thing, 4H is not great opposite most hands I came up with.

It's reasonable to assume that partner doesn't t have much wastage in spades. He probably has 3 or 4 spades, but he didn't bid notrumps.

Did your constructions include hands like xxxx xx KQx KQxx, which is roughly the minimum that I think partner could have for a raise to 4♥?