[Lovera]

This is another hand, for the purpoise of this topic (two suits exchange), that i've seen in other one: ♠ Qx ♥ Axxx ♦ Qx ♣ KQxx, heart is trump suit. Tell me if you are agree untill now.

[Zelandakh]

Lovera, on 2015-June-17, 07:51, said:

This is another hand, for the purpoise of this topic (two suits exchange), that i've seen in other one: ♠ Qx ♥ Axxx ♦ Qx ♣ KQxx, heart is trump suit. Tell me if you are agree untill now.

Please give your auction for the hands in the OP. Then additional auctions for each of the following East hands (taken from #13):-

Kxx K109x KQJx AK
Kx K109x KQJx AQx
Kx K109x KQJxx AQ

You are welcome to add further examples once these 4 are covered.

[Lovera]

Zelandakh, on 2015-June-17, 10:37, said:

Please give your auction for the hands in the OP. Then additional auctions for each of the following East hands (taken from #13):-

Kxx K109x KQJx AK
Kx K109x KQJx AQx
Kx K109x KQJxx AQ

You are welcome to add further examples once these 4 are covered.

About first hand i've already said, the second and third are similar but 5th diamond/3th club. Than with 5♠(=?)-6♣(=Q in club), 6♦(=?)-6♠(=Q in spade too)/6NT(=xx in spade). The concept is to remain at 6 level. If partner bid before 6♦ (than not 5♠) and in spade is not Q the answer is 6NT that is not excluding that in club there is Q. If partner bid 7♣: If Q is not=7♥, If Q is in club=7♦..

[rhm]

gnasher, on 2012-February-27, 14:42, said:

A reasonable cue-bidding auction is

    -1♦
1♥-4♥
4♠-5♣
5♦-6♣
6♥

West knows that there's a spade loser, so he's not tempted to go on.

If East's spades were Kx instead of Qx, he could bid Keycard over 4♠. This is a good example of the disadvantages of Kickback.

Why is this a good example of the disadvantages of Kickback? Can you elaborate?
I am not a fan of Kickback (too error prone), but my understanding always was that playing Kickback over heart agreement only interchanges the meaning of 4♠ and 4NT.
So in your sequence playing kickback the spade control bid would be 4NT.

Rainer Herrmann

[gwnn]

rhm, on 2015-June-18, 05:26, said:

Why is this a good example of the disadvantages of Kickback? Can you elaborate?
I am not a fan of Kickback (too error prone), but my understanding always was that playing Kickback over heart agreement only interchanges the meaning of 4♠ and 4NT.
So in your sequence playing kickback the spade control bid would be 4NT.

Rainer Herrmann

His point was that you can't bid kickback after 4NT when 4NT showed a spade control, but you can bid RKC if 4S showed the control instead.

[Lovera]

It should be considered that if is insert doubleton togheter Q (because are third round controlls) in RKCB answers the same has to be done for singleton and K (second round controlls).

[Lovera]

So when you switch on a suit (5♠, 6x) you query for Q, when you bid 5NT you want to know about K. Either first case or the other you sure to have all 5 keys plus Q and are looking for a grand.

[Zelandakh]

Lovera, these one-liners make no sense without context. I re-posted the hands a few posts back. It would be much more helpful to give complete auctions for each case. Thanks, bye.

[Lovera]

This interesting topic it seems to me had indicated a point that may be considered such a" little nice problem ". Complication are becoming to balanced and managed answers to apply on a generality of cases. I have done mathematician studies and about this type -i say - of algorithmic problem that i like very much too and also me as you we are working at this (RKCB) one to estabilish level of compatibility for vary elements to insert. Than i ask you to be patient because anytime answeres are not quickly to tell.

[MinorKid]

Zelandakh, on 2015-June-17, 10:37, said:

Please give your auction for the hands in the OP. Then additional auctions for each of the following East hands (taken from #13):-

Kxx K109x KQJx AK
Kx K109x KQJx AQx
Kx K109x KQJxx AQ

You are welcome to add further examples once these 4 are covered.

Hand 1 and 2 would had rebid 2NT and 4♥ over 3♦

[MinorKid]

If i were West, I'd like to play ♦ trumps to ask for the ♦Q.

Since it is not possible, i'd cue-bid 4♠ to let partner decide.

[Zelandakh]

MinorKid, on 2015-June-22, 09:26, said:

Hand 1 and 2 would had rebid 2NT and 4♥ over 3♦

For the majority of players a 2NT rebid denies 4 card heart support. I know some play otherwise, Fluffy does for example, but you should not state your ideas as some kind of standard where they are not.

[Lovera]

Let us see, detailing more, the hands we talk about to explain. I call the hand of W in post #1 "A", the hand of E "0" and the hands of gnasher in post #13 in order to present "1", "2" and "3" so having four cases. After a bidding that has discoverd from every side 14 and more points to think slam after RKCB and relative answer of 5♥(=2k-Q), 5♠ query for Q in all our cases. Than : with A0 hand the answer is 6♦. Now, not indicating Q in club (otherwise 6♣) is likely Q in spade more and, as i have already said, bidding ends in 6♥. In case A1 after 5♠ instead we have the negative case recourring in trump 6♥. And then the two similar cases A2 and A3: the answer to 5♠ query for Q is 6♣(=Q in club is) and 6♦ is for controlling that in diamond suit Q is with 6NT (an eventually 6♠ signal a third Q). West considering doubleton in spade usefull can bid 7♥. Fourthemore we can consider, as undermeaning or support, that when two balanced hands are on the line searching for grand we need: four Aces obviuosly and more (considering also trump agree) other almost six high honors between K and Q i.e. four K and two Q or three K and three Q it being a positif condition to get on.

[Lovera]

When i have discovered this topic are, if i just remember, about 2800 views whilest now there is an increment more 10/15 per cent and probably enter in top 30 list round one years ago. Than i am glad of it and suppose meaning is that is interesting (also as a natural and easy methodology to query).

[Lovera]

What i had said : actually is on 34th position. I want to say that this "mechanism" and what i have explained with a detailed analisys in "RKC question .." in Expert Class Bridge (i suggest to see) became from the same source.

[rmnka447]

Certainly, West must take the lion's share of the blame on this auction. The jump to 7 is unwarranted without being able to count to 13 or being sure that the odds of making 13 tricks are at least 2 out of 3 or better.

But for me, West also has no business taking the captaincy of this auction with RKCB. I think West's proper call over 4 ♥ is 4 ♠. As others have pointed out, no matter what the answers from East to RKCB, West can't know enough about East's hand to judge whether 13 tricks are there.

However, after a 4 ♠ control bid by West, East can assume the captaincy and will be in a position to properly decide where the contract should be placed. I don't think it's too much of a stretch for West to realize that it will be much easier to describe his/her values to East than vice-versa.

After 4 ♠ by West, I can see a couple paths to the right contract.

RKCB

1 ♦ - 1 ♥
4 ♥ - 4 ♠
4 NT - 5 ♣
5 ♦ - 5 NT

Queen ask - Have Q, no outside kings

6 ♥ - P



Control bidding (Old fashioned As first)

1 ♦ - 1 ♥
4 ♥ - 4 ♠
5 ♣ - 5 ♦
5 ♥ - 6 ♣

5 ♥ is a waiting bid, 6 ♣ denies a 2nd round ♠ control and implies good trumps.

6 ♥ - P

[Lovera]

For instance thanks at rmnka447 for having get to start a dialogue that i am getting on two "tables", as i've said in post 55. To delimitate : i don't consider, on this stage, cue bid but "only" RKCB as point to start. As usually we can consider it when we have two Aces (almost) - you are saying two keys(=A+King of trump) by East. But it is not yet this one the point. I, infact, save bidding starting RKCB by West and, pay attemption, i maneged RKCB in a different and more advanced way. This one is allowed because this convention (RKCB) "is opened" in its structure to this insertness (expecially about this part) and i have demonstred how can be possible and maneged it in post 53. This argoument involves many parts to explain, bye.

[Lovera]

As i think many people should have understood, all answers that i have product every time that i starting to query, were in application of an already predeterminate system for this type of biddings. Infact these ones came from "The New Asking Bid" section third round controll and relative reponses by Ely Culbertson and you can see an example in my post 21 for the case of the topic.

[gwnn]

Quote

As i think many people should have understood, all answers that i have product every time that i starting to query, were in application of an already predeterminate system for this type of biddings.

I don't know how to break this to you but I don't think anyone understood anything from your posts. I don't want to sound harsh but there is a certain language barrier at play here and your posts are very hard to understand. Could you use simpler English in the following so we can have a dialogue? (For example I have absolutely no idea what the quoted sentence is supposed to mean.) Otherwise we will just all be wasting our time here (you writing your posts, us trying to understand them).

[Lovera]

gwnn, on 2015-July-14, 12:05, said:

I don't know how to break this to you but I don't think anyone understood anything from your posts. I don't want to sound harsh but there is a certain language barrier at play here and your posts are very hard to understand. Could you use simpler English in the following so we can have a dialogue? (For example I have absolutely no idea what the quoted sentence is supposed to mean.) Otherwise we will just all be wasting our time here (you writing your posts, us trying to understand them).

Gwinn, you come from Holland but i am refferring principally to american and english people because they known better (and i think you too) Ely Culbertson author of this system of slam bidding the "New Asking Bid" that licterally stratigraph hand for shape informations and controlls. Because i'm moving on this "theme" from much time and in different posts if you want an explication i am available to clear to you, bye.