[aguahombre]

bluejak, on 2012-February-29, 19:19, said:

Now, let's assume you are playing a game of bridge with real people, ok?

If we assumed that, this thread (and the related one) would have died much earlier. Real people would not be asking about an unalerted cheapest club response to a NT opening.

Exceptions:
--they want to help the opponents remember what version of Stayman is employed.
--it is a less-risky method of suggesting a club lead.
--they like to harangue the opponents during their auctions to create confusion.
--they are fishing to see if a bid is likely to be doubled.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-February-29, 20:05

[barmar]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-29, 19:54, said:

If we assumed that, this thread (and the related one) would have died much earlier. Real people would not be asking about an unalerted cheapest club response to a NT opening.

But what if it's alerted, as ACBL required until this year? The issue of how you explain a bid is independent of whether it's alertable.

[aguahombre]

Hopefully I can wait to deal with last year until last year comes around again. The change was a good thing.

[barmar]

Was ACBL the only place where Puppet Stayman was alertable, and now it's universally not alertable?

[jillybean]

(ACBL) 2N 3♣ puppet is not alerted, are the responses 3♦ (showing 1 or both 4cM, denying 5cM)
and 3N (denying either 4 or 5cM) alertable?

[blackshoe]

Yes, and yes, according to my reading of the regulation. However, I've been surprised before by the way the ACBL interprets its regs.

[gwnn]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-29, 19:54, said:

If we assumed that, this thread (and the related one) would have died much earlier. Real people would not be asking about an unalerted cheapest club response to a NT opening.

Exceptions:
--they want to help the opponents remember what version of Stayman is employed.
--it is a less-risky method of suggesting a club lead.
--they like to harangue the opponents during their auctions to create confusion.
--they are fishing to see if a bid is likely to be doubled.

--they prefer to ask very frequently about a lot of 1st round bids not to convey UI to their pd. I always ask what 2D promises for example, and it has benefits in almost all sequences. I wouldn't normally ask about 3C but sometimes I'm in a mood to (no, the mood doesn't come from what I have in my hand, but rather a general trend in that session).

[Trinidad]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-29, 19:54, said:

bluejak, on 2012-February-29, 19:19, said:

Now, let's assume you are playing a game of bridge with real people, ok?

If we assumed that, this thread (and the related one) would have died much earlier. Real people would not be asking about an unalerted cheapest club response to a NT opening.

Exceptions:
--they want to help the opponents remember what version of Stayman is employed.
--it is a less-risky method of suggesting a club lead.
--they like to harangue the opponents during their auctions to create confusion.
--they are fishing to see if a bid is likely to be doubled.

Your exceptions are somewhat true for the typical ACBL club game where aunt Millie plays with uncle Bob on Monday evening, with Martha on Tuesday afternoon (when uncle Bob plays golf), with uncle Phil on Tuesday evening (since uncle Bob plays chess and Martha teaches knitting), with uncle Bob on Wednesday evening (Millie always visits her daughter on Wednesdays), with Lew on Thursday afternoon (he is in a wheelchair and therefore doesn't play golf), with Martha on Thursday evening (Uncle Bob and uncle Phil play poker at Lew's place) and with her neighbor Mary on Friday evening (she doesn't know how to play, but she is such a dear).

Aunt Millie barely understands how Puppet Stayman works, but Bob says that you need to play it otherwise you won't be able to find a 5-3 fit in a major. Phil also thinks it is a good convention (or was it Lew?), but did we already decide to play it?


However, in an environment where fixed partnerships are the norm you can assume that the opponents know what they are doing in the first round of an uncontested auction. In that case it is perfectly normal to ask what 3♣ means already for the simple reason gwnn gives:

gwnn, on 2012-March-01, 01:11, said:

--they prefer to ask very frequently about a lot of 1st round bids not to convey UI to their pd.

Rik

[aguahombre]

"Frequently asking about bids, in order not to give UI to partner" refers to alerted bids, not the annoying practice of continually interrupting auctions with inane questions about unalerted calls.

[wyman]

Trinidad, on 2012-March-01, 03:34, said:

the typical ACBL club game where aunt Millie plays with uncle Bob on Monday evening, with Martha on Tuesday afternoon (when uncle Bob plays golf), with uncle Phil on Tuesday evening (since uncle Bob plays chess and Martha teaches knitting), with uncle Bob on Wednesday evening (Millie always visits her daughter on Wednesdays), with Lew on Thursday afternoon (he is in a wheelchair and therefore doesn't play golf), with Martha on Thursday evening (Uncle Bob and uncle Phil play poker at Lew's place) and with her neighbor Mary on Friday evening (she doesn't know how to play, but she is such a dear).

A+

[Vampyr]

barmar, on 2012-February-29, 22:58, said:

Was ACBL the only place where Puppet Stayman was alertable, and now it's universally not alertable?

It's alertable in England, and probably most other places.

[Vampyr]

jillybean, on 2012-February-29, 23:48, said:

(ACBL) 2N 3♣ puppet is not alerted, are the responses 3♦ (showing 1 or both 4cM, denying 5cM)
and 3N (denying either 4 or 5cM) alertable?

So if 3♦ denies a 5-card major but is reticent on the subject of 4-card majors, then it must be alerted? WEIRD regulation.

[Trinidad]

aguahombre, on 2012-March-01, 09:23, said:

"Frequently asking about bids, in order not to give UI to partner" refers to alerted bids, not the annoying practice of continually interrupting auctions with inane questions about unalerted calls.

Alerting has nothing to do directly with frequently asking questions.

You frequently ask in those cases where it is relatively likely that you might want to know. Usually this is early in the auction and it is obviously about a bid that could have different meanings.

In almost all cases, a bid that could have different meanings will be alerted. After all, there is only one non alertable meaning (usually the natural one), so there is little reason to ask then.

But if a non alertable bid can have many meanings, there is a good reason to ask. After all, you might want to know. In the ACBL, a not alertable 3♣ response to a 2NT opening can be anything. Therefore, you ask, unless you are playing against Aunt Millie.

Rik

[FrancesHinden]

mjj29, on 2012-February-28, 09:15, said:

I think the issue here is that some bids show something about the hand, some merely ask a question - but in asking the question imply something about the hand, and some are forced.

Where the bid shows something about the hand making the bid (or might do) those things are clearly disclosable. Where the bid just asks a question, it should clearly have all the inferences about the hand explained. One of the inferences is that the hand is one for which the responses are suitable. This requires the oppo to know what is being asked for (Majors, aces, etc). It doesn't need for them to know the precise response structure. The other inference is one about strength. Everyone knows that 'stayman' in some partnerships may be weak and they should ask follow-up questions if they need to know. Equally, it's obvious that bidding blackwood shows strength suitable for slam. In other cases, this may be disclosable.

I think this is a good summary.

There's a practical point that it full disclosure about the hand types asking the question may take a very long time, but it's certainly more useful (and it's also required information) than stating what the responses are. In the example given, if I was feeling pedantic, I might say "asks for information about partner's 4/5 card major holdings, but might be the first step with a minor suit slam try" (if that's how the hypothetical pair play it). I tend to short cut that at the table by saying something like "initially asks for 4/5 card majors" which I think is enough to flag that responder may not be directly interested in the answer.

[kevperk]

Vampyr, on 2012-March-07, 15:40, said:

So if 3♦ denies a 5-card major but is reticent on the subject of 4-card majors, then it must be alerted? WEIRD regulation.

No, 3♦ is alertable playing any form of puppet stayman, because it denies a 5-card major.