[JustaDummy]

bd71, on 2012-March-13, 21:15, said:

… we have de facto non-beginner/non-expert fora, and they are called "Interesting Bridge Hands" and "SAYC and 2/1 Discussion." I think those are fine destinations for the mass middle without creating a new forum.

Good for "non-beginner/non-expert"and good for "the mass middle", and good for SAYC and 2/1 aficionados, once a beginner gets to understand the difference there, and why maybe one is better than the other, or not, or even get to know why SAYC might or might not be superior to Precision, and all the stuff that surrounds that kind of debate.

Seriously, some of the posters here need to get a grip on the reality that is the world in which the true beginner in BBO is trying to keep his head above water. At what point in any of my posts did I suggest that I'm trying to address the middle ground? Maybe I misunderstand you, but if I do, you really need to help me out here. Did the OP not post with a discussion about the possibility of a complete newbies forum? And if he did, then why are you suggesting that forums satisfying the middle ground are relevant? I'm totally prepared to believe that I know nothing here, but I just need to be shown where I have got this all wrong.

[Quartic]

bd71, on 2012-March-13, 21:15, said:

True, I wasn't responding to wyman's OP, but rather to the evolving sub-topic of a new I/A forum. My point was that we have de facto non-beginner/non-expert fora, and they are called "Interesting Bridge Hands" and "SAYC and 2/1 Discussion." I think those are fine destinations for the mass middle without creating a new forum.

Not every natural system is SA or 2/1 - I for one play Acol. I don't think Interesting Bridge Hands is appropriate for all my I/A level questions, so I tend to ask here. I do agree that there is a large gap between Novice/Beginner level and the level (I think!) I'm at. I think a Novice/Beginner forum is a good idea, and that posts there should be kept away from more advanced topics that I would find appropriate in answer to my I/A questions.

[IrishToby]

As a true novice I even hesitate to say anything! I decided to learn something about bridge only in the last couple of weeks. Never been much of a card player of any kind in the past, but now in my retirement years am trying to scratch an itch of interest. Please take these comments from that perspective. Truthfully, reading the above comments and trying to stand back and see a bigger picture, vague though I may be about what BBO is about, I found myself finding merit in some completely opposite opinions.

To someone like me bridge is overwhelming to approach. I pulled a book off my shelf bought 30 years ago and not used (First Book of Bridge, Sheinwold) and started to work through it to try to grasp concepts and the most basic idea of what this is about. I searched google and among many sites, discovered BBO, which has impressed me greatly. I watched games and generally explored. I had no expectation of a fast learning curve before I started, good thing, because now I wonder about it all, though I continue to work with great interest and increasing understanding, if only at a very low level. So what does all that mean for the subject at hand?

With no opinion about what it means for the bigger philosophy of BBO, some very clearly identified area for novices/beginners would certainly be helpful to me. I browse all over the place sometimes, because my approach to learning is to spend some time reading very widely about the subject to get a flavour of things, the lexicon, all the time seeing things that when, one day I understand better, they ring bells. But when I got down to specific elementary things and focusing on the basics, I find that there are vast (perhaps an exaggeration) areas where assumptions, short forms, code words etc. are simply assumed. I guess they are minus basic! Finding those things, which may be there but not easily found, is frustrating. (Although I often find other things on the way!)

I understand very well why a novice/beginner is hesitant to post. We think that our question is something that any fool should know. Even the anonymity of our fake names does not sufficiently make us fear that someone might point out that in fact we are fools! To post to a general posting area where people of every level post only compounds that reluctance. At least in a novice/beginner area we can think that we have adequately acknowledged our lack of understanding from the get-go. The idea of leading a subject post with NOVICE QUESTION in general postings is a good idea, if posting there.

[jillybean]

Wow, all this time and effort posting why you couldn't/shouldn't/dare not post - just do it It doesn't matter if the only one to benefit is you.

[Cthulhu D]

The Split B&I thing is ridiculous. There are already three forums - Beginners and Intermediates, General Bridge Discussion and Advanced. If it's too big for B&I and not big enough for advanced, just post it in general.

Also forums are what the community make of them, so just go for it I reckon. Who cares if you have no idea. Most people are surprisingly tolerance when you discuss if you should play your 3 level bids as various brown sticker pre-empts.

Also more sub-forums is bad, we already have so many that most down the bottom are total graveyards. With this in mind, re-purpose something we already have.

[Codo]

I would listen to the people who complain that the stuff in the B/I is often too difficult, too esoteric, too anything. After all, they are the the target group of this forum.
So I strongly disagree with Ben. There is no need to talk about squeezes, Gazilli, Kickback Precision etc. here. The people who want to learn these parts of the game can look somewhere else. There is enough room elsewhere to talk about it. And if you still have problems to count and to signal, this stuff is simply the wrong stuff to learn.
If you are a real rookie or beginner and 2 out of 3 threads a re far beyond your knowledge, you may get frustrated even reading it.

So, I would strongly suggest to lower the limits for the B/I thread to have a place where Bs can feal safe and warm.

And when experts answer, they should not answer in a way like: In standard bidding, you have to guess now, but with this little gem (supper muppet stayman) you had solved the problem in seconds, you just use your two step transfer, which partner will superaccept with a jump into his doubleton, so after using exclusion kickback, you can reach the superior 7 club on the 4-2 fit. Bridge is really easy.

[mgoetze]

Cthulhu D, on 2012-March-14, 01:30, said:

The Split B&I thing is ridiculous. There are already three forums - Beginners and Intermediates, General Bridge Discussion and Advanced. If it's too big for B&I and not big enough for advanced, just post it in general.

I disagree strongly - I for one do not want to see the General Bridge Discussion forum swamped with "what would you do on this hand" posts, please stick to topics which are truly of general interest there.

[mgoetze]

bd71, on 2012-March-13, 21:15, said:

True, I wasn't responding to wyman's OP, but rather to the evolving sub-topic of a new I/A forum. My point was that we have de facto non-beginner/non-expert fora, and they are called "Interesting Bridge Hands" and "SAYC and 2/1 Discussion." I think those are fine destinations for the mass middle without creating a new forum.

What about those who play ACOL, or SEF, or other natural systems?

[gwnn]

mgoetze, on 2012-March-14, 04:44, said:

I disagree strongly - I for one do not want to see the General Bridge Discussion forum swamped with "what would you do on this hand" posts, please stick to topics which are truly of general interest there.

Could you clarify what 'truly of general interest' means? Perhaps also with some examples?

[mgoetze]

gwnn, on 2012-March-14, 04:52, said:

Could you clarify what 'truly of general interest' means? Perhaps also with some examples?

OK that was perhaps a bit too broad. What I meant is that I don't mind discussions along the lines of "do you think Lebensohl should apply in the following situations", but I don't want to see "yesterday I had the following hand, should I bid Lebensohl or should I bid 3♦ directly?"

[Flameous]

I like the way the forums are used now. (Maybe with the addition that Sayc/2/1 forum includes all natural systems because now acol finds itself quite out of place)
But if it makes any sense, I'd call current B/I rather as "Instructional". That means it would include as much all the simple questions total newcomers might have as well as these great instructional threads Inquiry has come up with.

I mean really, these forums aren't really flooded with content or anything. I take a short check every day which only gets longer if I find something interesting enough to post. Even when I'm very active, that probably means less than hour a week. If some newcomers only need go through B/I, it hardly takes any time at all to go through threads and skip ones they find too hard.

Also I don't think forums are the best way to get the hold of this game as a total newbie. There are good books and courses and such for that. If you try to learn the basics in a forum, it's like having one student and a dozen arguing teachers, it just doesn't work.
I'm not saying that anyone shouldn't post their novice questions here, but just keep note on what kind of learning environment this is.

And I like the OP's idea of notification when the required content is really for novices. If we get a flood of novice posters after this thread, it makes it much simpler for them

[mikeh]

When we compare the posts from the newbies to Ben's current thread on squeezes, I suggest that we should see that we have a real problem here.

Don't get me wrong: I have huge respect for Ben's efforts and his good....great....intentions, but there can be no real basis for arguing that a forum in which Ben can discuss and set out a quiz on such things as progressive squeezes, entry squeezes and the like belongs in the same part of the site as questions about what we mean when we say that two hands are 'mirrored'.

It is essential, imo, that this site have an area in which people can feel safe in asking the questions that seem 'silly' to those of us who have played the game for so long that we have forgotten how challenging it was for us to learn these things. I also suspect that some of us never really had to 'learn' these things because they grew up in a bridge-playing family.

I have no idea how difficult it is to set up a 'new to the game' forum, distinct from B/I. If it can be done relatively easily, I'd suggest we do so and that maybe we look back on that forum 6-12 months from now and if it is as unpopulated as some of the moribund ones we have currently, then eliminate it...but if it attracts more lurkers to post, and more true newbies to raise their heads above the parapet....we all gain, as does the game itself.

[Antrax]

I think focusing on inquiry's squeeze thread is doing him a disservice. His previous threads were excellent and I wish I'd seen some of what he posted about before I learned it the hard way. In other words, great beginner material.
Honestly, I don't think there's a problem with topics, just with the way they're presented. It's disheartening to read a forum full of abbreviations, references to posters' history and personal attacks. It makes posts incomprehensible, and doesn't invite one to dive in. I can relate to someone not wanting to post "what is X" for multiple Xs in the same thread - you'd feel like you're stalling the flow of conversation, like a foreigner demanding everyone use simple words.

[JLOGIC]

For the love of god B I/A E, that is the best idea ever.

I think just in terms of "what sounds better", people don't want to post in B/I esp if they think they are advanced and they're probably intermediate or between, it sounds like they're a n00b. If they could post in I/A then it would not hurt their ego, it would also merge the two that are the hardest to define, which would be fine because no one would have to define it.

The way it is now:

-For true beginners, it is intimidating, because B/I is still filled with stuff too advanced for them and they feel like they're idiots for not being able to post in the beginner forum.
-For intermediates, they want to post in A/E, because naturally they think they are advanced, and don't want to be lumped into the beginner forum, bad for the psyche
-For advanced, ok they post in a/e.
-For expert, well as we see, everyone posts in A/E, so it can be annoying when you want to post something for a higher level discussion and it gets watered down with dumb comments.

The system right now does not work for anyone except advanced players. Yes, if you changed it to B I/A and E, B and E would be low traffic, but they would still serve a purpose. I/A would just be like A/E, it would be the same exact people posting in I/A as in A/E anyways lol, so who cares, all that would happen is that it would be improved for the Bs and the Es.

On top of that, even though I/A would functionally be the exact same as A/E, I think we would see a LOT nicer of an attitude in it, if I was an E posting in I/A, I would treat it somewhat like I treat posting in B/I now, I am supposed to be nicer and less sarcastic/more helpful since it is not the forum I "belong" in and thus I am posting there to be helpful. It would certainly stop the hostility of people who start threads in A/E that do not belong there and getting flamed. It would really create a nicer atmosphere imo.

I think the current system could have worked if people actually posted in the right forum, but the reality is, no one wants to be in the lower of 2 levels. If almost everyone is in the middle of 2 levels, I think that would be fine for ego purposes. OK, I am not an expert, but I am also not a beginner, I am an ambiguous I or A.

[Free]

mgoetze, on 2012-March-13, 11:03, said:

I have recommended several times splitting the forums into B, I/A and E.

My thoughts exactly, and Justin explained it very nicely why.

Same goes for the "SAYC and 2/1" forum btw, many have suggested to call it "natural" which also seems more appropriate.

[HighLow21]

mikeh, on 2012-March-14, 11:46, said:

When we compare the posts from the newbies to Ben's current thread on squeezes, I suggest that we should see that we have a real problem here.
<snip>

We Like Mike.

The gulf between what a true newbie understands and is capable of incorporating effectively, and some (a LOT) of what appears in the B&I forum (either because it is legitimate Intermediate material or because it is well-intentioned Experts shooting past their audience) is MASSIVE.

In fact I would argue that the real split should be the following, if there are to be only 2 groups: Novice/Beginner, and Intermediate+.

I also would argue that BBO's current ranking system definition, whereby roughly 90% of the BBO population truly falls into Intermediate, is in and of itself problematic, but that is a separate topic (which I why I started a separate thread addressing that topic and will not discuss it further here).

[HighLow21]

JLOGIC, on 2012-March-14, 13:06, said:

For the love of god B I/A E, that is the best idea ever.

...

Holy cow, are Justin and I now beginning to agree entirely on a regular basis?! HA!!

Combining my post above with Justin's excellent post, I would vote for N/B and I+ if there are 2 forums, and N/B; I; A/E ... OR ... N/B; I/A; E if there are 3.

If I could vote for one specific scenario only, I think it would almost certainly be the 3-forum scenario precisely as Justin laid out above (N/B; I/A; E).

[Cthulhu D]

Taking comments on board, maybe a better split up of forums is:

• General Discussion - Subforums: Youth, Offline, Reviews
  
• Natural Systems - ACOL, 2/1, Sayc - Subforum: BBO Standard
  
• Artificial Systems - Strong club and forcing pass start here!
  
• Beginners - Bidding and play problems
  
• Intermediate and Advanced - Bidding and play problems
  
• Expert - Bidding and play problems

Subforums should be displayed like they are on forums.somethingawful.com or similar, a small tag within the large 'General discussion' bar, not a whole line to themselves.

If you really insist you can make interesting bridge hands a separate forum, but imho you're better off folding that content into the relevant 'level' forum. If it's a hand interesting because you found an elementary backwash triple squeeze without the count, put it in expert. If you do that, the BPO forum should be scraped, the forum should be called 'Solvers club' or similar and all discuss folded back in there.

This then has the benefit that posting on even a moderately sized laptop screen viewers will be able to see the "BBO Announcements and Special Events" forum, and presumably be more aware of general BBO happenings.

[JustaDummy]

I belong to many forums, not just this one (and none about bridge apart from this one). I've seen many posts in many of these forums, made in response to a newbie. In most of these forums, typically a newbie will start off with something like, "I hope this isn't a stupid question, but…" and typically someone will come up with the old mantra, "There is no such thing as a stupid question," as if everyone reading the forum is just waiting for a chance to answer the question, with no interest in its level.

That just sucks. Sorry. There may not be anything like a stupid question, and I actually believe that to be true, but there absolutely IS such a thing as an inappropriate one. Here is an example.

Let's say I'm posting in the Expert forum, and my question is, "I have 13 HCP and a five card Spade suit, with nothing much anywhere else. What should I open with?" (I post in the expert forum because I want the best answer, of course. Bear with me for the moment, I'm exploring principles here.)

The question is valid. The forum is not.

The question is valid because there is an answer, which the poster seeks. This is the basis of the "no such thing a s stupid question" mantra. The forum is not valid, because everyone apart from the poster knows that everyone in the expert forum (and below) knows the answer to that question as though they were born with that basic info stamped on their diaper (nappy, for Europeans).

I don't make this point in order that some folks here might respond with, "Well, that is a completely wrong forum for that question." My point is about the question, and what it means in relation to the mantra "There is no such thing as a stupid question." Just making that clear.

So the question is independently valid. But dependently invalidated.

On the other hand, no one as far as I have seen, is interested in the validity of any of the answers. That, as far as I can see, is a free-for-all.

Some of those responses are good. Some are freaking excellent! I posted earlier that I was astounded that international bridge experts contributed to the B/I forum - that was not an indication of dismay at all, despite some responses. My astonishment was (assuming that beginner questions would prevail) that any top level player could find the time, given the low level of queries that I'd expect of a true beginners forum.

which prompted me to think that B/I is really not a beginners' forum at all.

This forum is good, but it actually really doesn't help true beginners.

[squealydan]

JustaDummy, on 2012-March-15, 20:25, said:

This forum is good, but it actually really doesn't help true beginners.

As has been pointed out, if there are any true beginners out there who find the existing content a bit offputting, the solution is for more beginners to ask questions.

I'm not convinced that there would ever be enough of a market for a true beginner only forum (all beginners I know learn at clubs, and so have a place to ask questions - they also progress at a proscribed pace with little incentive to go any quicker...). However, if BBO did relaunch the forums with a B-only section, would it be possible to send an email to all registered users who self-describe as "Novice" or "Beginner" to let them know that kindly experts may be on hand to help them?