[jillybean]

---

Take it from here, south will now compete to 4♣.

Can you construct an auction that allows e/w to find their game - standard bidding, no fancy treatments please.

[ahydra]

edit: I see you fixed the auction

So (starting with N)
1D-1S-p-p
2C-X-4C-4H
p-5C-p-6H

Once NS start bidding clubs, East can judge that his hand is a monster for hearts (the ♦QJ are surely onside, and West hasn't supported spades which means a long spade can be ruffed good).

The only dodgy bit is whether West would bid 6H. But I think he should do - partner showed a monster, he has a 6-card suit to AK and can see a club void opposite.

ahydra

[jillybean]

Ok, if it makes any difference south competes to 4♣, no jump.

[ArtK78]

I do not understand the pass by West. AKxxxx of hearts should bid hearts. Now East will get excited and I don't see how you can stop short of slam.

[mikeh]

The one call I truly cannot understand, on the auction as posted, is N's reopening. He should be shot.

E could have doubled at his first turn, but I agree with 1♠.

W could have bid 2♥. This is a great advertisement for transfer advances. W no doubt passed because 2♥ would be forcing and was seen by him as a significant overbid. Whether one agrees or not, I suspect we'd all agree that he has an easy 2♦ transfer advance, which (in my partnerships) should be taken by East as showing approximately weak 2 values.....look at the E hand opposite a weak 2 in hearts....slam may still be out of reach, but game is trivial.

[jillybean]

ArtK78, on 2012-May-03, 09:18, said:

I do not understand the pass by West. AKxxxx of hearts should bid hearts. Now East will get excited and I don't see how you can stop short of slam.

So your auction would have started 1♦ 1♠ P 2♥?

[ArtK78]

jillybean, on 2012-May-03, 09:35, said:

So your auction would have started 1♦ 1♠ P 2♥?

Yes.

[ArtK78]

mikeh, on 2012-May-03, 09:35, said:

The one call I truly cannot understand, on the auction as posted, is N's reopening. He should be shot.

E could have doubled at his first turn, but I agree with 1♠.

W could have bid 2♥. This is a great advertisement for transfer advances. W no doubt passed because 2♥ would be forcing and was seen by him as a significant overbid. Whether one agrees or not, I suspect we'd all agree that he has an easy 2♦ transfer advance, which (in my partnerships) should be taken by East as showing approximately weak 2 values.....look at the E hand opposite a weak 2 in hearts....slam may still be out of reach, but game is trivial.

I have not played transfer advances of overcalls in many years, but this hand is certainly a great advertisement for it.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2012-May-03, 09:35, said:

The one call I truly cannot understand, on the auction as posted, is N's reopening. He should be shot.

E could have doubled at his first turn, but I agree with 1♠.

W could have bid 2♥. This is a great advertisement for transfer advances. W no doubt passed because 2♥ would be forcing and was seen by him as a significant overbid. Whether one agrees or not, I suspect we'd all agree that he has an easy 2♦ transfer advance, which (in my partnerships) should be taken by East as showing approximately weak 2 values.....look at the E hand opposite a weak 2 in hearts....slam may still be out of reach, but game is trivial.

Yes, West passed because she thought 2♥ was a significant overbid. We don't play transfer advances, maybe we should, what now?

[ArtK78]

jillybean, on 2012-May-03, 09:42, said:

Yes, West passed because she thought 2♥ was a significant overbid. We don't play transfer advances, maybe we should, what now?

If you play transfer advances, West bids 2♦ (showing hearts). Now East cue bids and they are off to the races.

[gszes]

while many feel a 1S overcall is ok I think it is one
of those bids you make praying you will survive the
first round of the bidding. I like x by a whole ton
vs 1s. E did not have a reopening x (too much spade
length so their p is probably broke) and your side
should have been saddled with 1s (I am not going to
bid 2h as w here with a doubleton spade).

Your hand and spade suit are strong enough to x and
then bid your suit so that is my suggested route and
look what happens-------1d x p 2h look how easy it
is to bid 2s now to show your spades and extra values
(forcing). Opps are probably silent now and bidding
proceeds

1d x p 2h
p 2s p 4h*
p 4n p 5h
6h

*since 2s is forcing w can pattern out. W was very close
to being able to bid 3h over the x and now takes the
opportunity to show the 1 suited nature of their hand.

[Cyberyeti]

This is a common problem, if you're going to pass 1♠ on the W hand, you can't overcall 1♠ on the E hand, the fine heart suit is a bit of a mirage, you've still missed 4♠ opposite Jx, AKx(x), xx, xxxxx(x).

We keep our overcalls stronger than most and respond as if they were openers, so we would never pass. You just need to agree what your minimum responding hand looks like to know what your maximum overcall should look like (or vice versa).

[Stephen Tu]

jillybean, on 2012-May-03, 09:42, said:

Yes, West passed because she thought 2♥ was a significant overbid. We don't play transfer advances, maybe we should, what now?

Why think it's an overbid?

If you are playing 2 level new suit as forcing over overcalls, you probably shouldn't be. Given the opening bid, and partner's lower average range for overcalling than an opening bid, you want to cater to getting to playable spots, allowing advancer to show their decent suits instead of having to pass everything without a fit. There's a reason non-forcing constructive is somewhat standard for new suits after overcalls. Playing it as forcing is catering to game and slam hands with no fit that are going to be comparatively rare.

Transfer advances are better, then you can show constructive/inv/force all with intuitive sequences, but it shouldn't have stopped you on this hand.

[rmnka447]

Given the auction as presented so far, East should DBL. The double shows extra values and a willingness to compete in the majors. It is not a penalty double because so far West has not shown any values whatsoever.

Whether West bids 2 ♥ initially might be a function of the partnership agreements over overcalls.

If the agreement is that new suits are forcing, then West doesn't have enough to make a 2 ♥ call.

If the agreement is that new suits are non-forcing, then West should bid 2 ♥. West does have a nice 6 card suit and tolerance for East's ♠s.

After the DBL, West should have no problem bidding 4 ♥ if South bids 4 ♣. Looking at 3 ♣s with both opponents showing ♣ length, East is unlikely to have many ♣s.

[jillybean]

Stephen Tu, on 2012-May-03, 11:46, said:

Why think it's an overbid?

If you are playing 2 level new suit as forcing over overcalls, you probably shouldn't be. Given the opening bid, and partner's lower average range for overcalling than an opening bid, you want to cater to getting to playable spots, allowing advancer to show their decent suits instead of having to pass everything without a fit. There's a reason non-forcing constructive is somewhat standard for new suits after overcalls. Playing it as forcing is catering to game and slam hands with no fit that are going to be comparatively rare.

Transfer advances are better, then you can show constructive/inv/force all with intuitive sequences, but it shouldn't have stopped you on this hand.

We play it as forcing, we should be playing it as nf-c, or transfers after overcalls..or nfb's

Having said that, the downside of bidding 2♥ now is that you can never show your 2 card ♠ support.

[Codo]

Your two card support is one reason why your hand is always strong enough for 2 ♥. If partner rebids a minimum 2 ♠, you will be well placed. If he shows extras and or a fit, your hand explodes.

[Fluffy]

mikeh, on 2012-May-03, 09:35, said:

The one call I truly cannot understand, on the auction as posted, is N's reopening. He should be shot.

Biddng and making slam would explode in his face just as good. No need to get violent

[Fluffy]

Codo, on 2012-May-04, 01:32, said:

Your two card support is one reason why your hand is always strong enough for 2 ♥. If partner rebids a minimum 2 ♠, you will be well placed. If he shows extras and or a fit, your hand explodes.

Contrary to this, I would be more inclined to bid with singleton spade, the reason is I don´t want to play in 5-1.

[ArtK78]

jillybean, on 2012-May-03, 12:22, said:

We play it as forcing, we should be playing it as nf-c, or transfers after overcalls..or nfb's

Don't bother with negative free bids. And nfb's do not apply here. That would be third hand after an opening bid and an overcall.

[mgoetze]

ArtK78, on 2012-May-04, 06:42, said:

Don't bother with negative free bids. And nfb's do not apply here.

Huh? Of course you can play NFBs in this situation.

(Transfers are superior, of course.)