[blackshoe]

I've already mentioned my attempts to exhange cards with an opponent shortly after I got back to the States from England. A couple of times they actually let it go — for a while. I would look at it, and then put it down near me. They would invariably grab it back, usually while giving me a dirty look. "My card! Mine!"

[Quantumcat]

 blackshoe, on 2012-September-05, 17:58, said:

I've already mentioned my attempts to exhange cards with an opponent shortly after I got back to the States from England. A couple of times they actually let it go — for a while. I would look at it, and then put it down near me. They would invariably grab it back, usually while giving me a dirty look. "My card! Mine!"

A CCs natural place is in front of your opponent. Since you're not supposed to look at your own CC during the bidding there isn't much point having it in front of you? I wonder if those people know this.

I wonder if your opponents were actually playing a very sophisticated defence to the Chameleon system

[semeai]

 Quantumcat, on 2012-September-05, 18:18, said:

A CCs natural place is in front of your opponent. Since you're not supposed to look at your own CC during the bidding there isn't much point having it in front of you? I wonder if those people know this.

People keep their scores on the reverse side, so they write in it after every hand and thus like to have it close. If you just filled out the convention card anew, you might just have the sheet of paper out, folded in half, with the scores inside, or conceivably folded in quarters in your pocket or under your leg. Otherwise people put it in a plastic sleeve that has flaps to hold onto more on the other side, where you add in blank ones with the scoresheet side showing (some then fold it, some lay it flat).

Are convention cards and scoresheets separate in England, or do people just take it back between hands to write scores on?

[sfi]

In Australia (where QuantumCat is from) both sides of the card are used for agreements. The inside of the card (when you fold it in half) contains information that the opponents are likely to need less frequently, such as responses to bids and agreements later in the auction.

The front has basic system, opening bids, and common defences, and a space for "pre-alerts", while the back has common continuations (jump shifts to an opening bid, ace asking, etc.) and carding.

Often the inside isn't filled out, particularly for pickup partnerships, and there is a simple system card that just comprises the outside bits of the standard one.

There is a link on the ABF site to a program used to produce them, and some completed examples under the recent ANC event information.

[semeai]

 sfi, on 2012-September-05, 18:59, said:

In Australia (where QuantumCat is from)

Oops! Many apologies.

Quote

[nice extended description of ABF convention cards]

I guess there are separate personal scoresheets, and people don't bundle/stack/fold them together?

[sfi]

Yes, even at club level there are separate scoresheets available - often tailored to the event (in sets of 9 if playing 9 board matches, and so on).

[blackshoe]

The ACBL would do well to emulate the ABF (and the EBU, which similarly has a card in which both sides of the page are used for agreements) and get rid of the "personal score" on the inside of the SC. I don't expect to see it in my lifetime.

[Quantumcat]

I don't really understand having a personal score in the actual system card. Won't you have to fill out a brand new system card for every event you play? (and every match in a teams event?)

[Trinidad]

 Quantumcat, on 2012-September-05, 22:41, said:

I don't really understand having a personal score in the actual system card. Won't you have to fill out a brand new system card for every event you play? (and every match in a teams event?)

No, players have these plastic sleeves: On the outside you will find the convention card that is used. On the inside, you will find the score card. For each new event, they will put in a new score card, keeping the convention card on the outside. I have seen sleeves that were a cm thick: 1 CC with n score cards (n>>1).

So, in practice, the ACBL has a score card booklet where the outside can be used as a convention card.

When I used to play in the ACBL, one person in the pair (South) would keep the sleeve with the private score cards. We kept our (laminated) convention cards separate and we would put them in front of our opponents. Most of the time they would respond angrily: We were cluttering their part of the table with our convention cards.

Rik

[paulg]

Even at the nationals I come across a lot of pick-up partnerships who have just agreed a few elements of system and their convention card IS their scorecard. As I mentioned previously, I am impressed by how good their common understanding is and little they have to agree.

[jillybean]

 blackshoe, on 2012-September-05, 17:55, said:

And that would drive most players in North America absolutely bonkers.

Are you saying they aren't already?

[jillybean]

 Quantumcat, on 2012-September-05, 18:18, said:

A CCs natural place is in front of your opponent. Since you're not supposed to look at your own CC during the bidding there isn't much point having it in front of you? I wonder if those people know this.

This is another law that is not enforced. Having your CC in your lap so that you can take a surreptitious glance is not uncommon, blatantly reading
your CC less so but it still happens.

[blackshoe]

 jillybean, on 2012-September-06, 07:11, said:

Are you saying they aren't already?

Heh. Good point.

[barmar]

 Vampyr, on 2012-September-05, 16:04, said:

No, there wouldn't; in places where CCs are exchanged they are not returned until the end of the round.

That won't happen here until ACBL stops putting the private score sheet on the back of the CC.

Actually, that's not the entire problem. I have preprinted CC's for all my regular partnerships, so they're not the same piece of paper as the private score. But I put both of them into a single convention card holder, so they're still attached to each other, and that's extremely common. The CC holders are designed for this.

[Vampyr]

 barmar, on 2012-September-06, 08:34, said:

That won't happen here until ACBL stops putting the private score sheet on the back of the CC.

Actually, that's not the entire problem. I have preprinted CC's for all my regular partnerships, so they're not the same piece of paper as the private score. But I put both of them into a single convention card holder, so they're still attached to each other, and that's extremely common. The CC holders are designed for this.

Yes, but the scorecard could easily be slipped inside without being attached, so there shouldn't be a problem with this arrangement.

[jillybean]

I have given up using CC holders because they do make sharing and viewing the CC more difficult, taking the card in and out of the holder destroys it.

My partner now prints our Bridgewinners CC on cardstock which makes the card far more durable,
deters me from making too many changes and provides a nice folder for the blank CC's which we use for score cards.

[Vampyr]

 jillybean, on 2012-September-06, 09:09, said:

I have given up using CC holders because they do make sharing and viewing the CC more difficult, taking the card in and out of the holder destroys it.

My partner now prints our Bridgewinners CC on cardstock which makes the card far more durable,
deters me from making too many changes and provides a nice folder for the blank CC's which we use for score cards.

I would think that taking the scorecard in and out would be the most natural thing to do. Anyway it's good to have something with a blank back so that you can add a lot more information. Even just printing a CC on the computer gives you a bit more room, since removing the unused checkboxes and the text associated with them lets you fill in things you actually do play.

[blackshoe]

 Vampyr, on 2012-September-06, 09:32, said:

I would think that taking the scorecard in and out would be the most natural thing to do. Anyway it's good to have something with a blank back so that you can add a lot more information.

I tend to make reference to footnotes on the actual card, and when I'm printing cards, I put the footnotes on the back. I learned this from the EBU.

I've seen players laminate their cards, even when they're on cardstock.

I know one player here who keeps all her cards (in those plastic holders others have mentioned) in the door pocket of her car. I tried that, but every time I opened the door, the cards fell on the ground. My conclusion was that I don't have enough cards (they were too loose in the pocket).

[Vampyr]

 blackshoe, on 2012-September-06, 09:38, said:

I tend to make reference to footnotes on the actual card, and when I'm printing cards, I put the footnotes on the back. I learned this from the EBU.

I think that footnotes are great; it is much clearer to put the essentials in the main text, and keep the less-often-needed details in the footnotes.

[aguahombre]

 jillybean, on 2012-September-06, 09:09, said:

I have given up using CC holders because they do make sharing and viewing the CC more difficult, taking the card in and out of the holder destroys it.

My partner now prints our Bridgewinners CC on cardstock which makes the card far more durable,
deters me from making too many changes and provides a nice folder for the blank CC's which we use for score cards.

Yep. The CC holders' only real benefit, IMO is to be able to store multiple CC's. We only need the one we are employing during a particular session.