[aguahombre]

Maybe the ACBL could publish regs and interpretations in your Orange Book for all to see.

Until they get around to creating a Red, White, and Blue book ---I guess we will scrounge for compilations of regs wherever we can find them.

[gnasher]

LH2650, on 2012-September-05, 18:54, said:

ACBLscore can be downloaded, and the Tech Files read, by anyone with a computer.

When I used the word "accessible", I was thinking of a procedure like:
- Go to the ACBL website
- Click "Charts, Rules and Regulations"
- Click "Bidding Box Regulations"

If I did that, I would assume that I had found the complete set of bidding-box regulations. I'm sure that most ACBL members think the same way.

Also, has the ACBL ever stated that the tech files are regulations?

[aguahombre]

gnasher, on 2012-September-06, 03:03, said:

When I used the word "accessible", I was thinking of a procedure like:
- Go to the ACBL website
- Click "Charts, Rules and Regulations"
- Click "Bidding Box Regulations"

You mean something like this?

[gnasher]

aguahombre, on 2012-September-06, 07:15, said:

You mean something like this?

No, not at all like that. If I were looking for ACBL regulations, I would look on the ACBL website. I'd also expect to see the word "regulations" somewhere on the page.

[barmar]

gnasher, on 2012-September-06, 03:03, said:

Also, has the ACBL ever stated that the tech files are regulations?

I suspect they're more like the Director's Handbook and Duplicate Decisions -- advice to directors on how to implement the official laws and regulations.

[barmar]

One thing to remember is that ACBL doesn't set rigid rules for club games, it's up to the clubs to establish and enforce their own rules. ACBL regulations like GCC, bidding box usage, etc. only apply directly to ACBL tournaments. That's why when you look at the Conditions of Contest page on the ACBL website, it mainly refers to national events.

[aguahombre]

gnasher, on 2012-September-06, 08:08, said:

No, not at all like that. If I were looking for ACBL regulations, I would look on the ACBL website. I'd also expect to see the word "regulations" somewhere on the page.

O.K. It is "Provided by courtesy of the ACBL", but not on its official website. I had better not acknowledge it as a resourse.

[blackshoe]

barmar, on 2012-September-06, 08:30, said:

One thing to remember is that ACBL doesn't set rigid rules for club games, it's up to the clubs to establish and enforce their own rules. ACBL regulations like GCC, bidding box usage, etc. only apply directly to ACBL tournaments. That's why when you look at the Conditions of Contest page on the ACBL website, it mainly refers to national events.

I think you are mistaken.

Quote

ACBL Handbook, Chapter IV, Section III, Part IV, pages 21-22: ACBL grants a club game sanction on the condition that the club conduct all game sessions in full compliance with ACBL regulations. These regulations help maintain the technical level of all games and ensure that masterpoints are issued under approximately equal conditions everywhere. To retain a sanction the club manager must observe both the letter and the spirit of ACBL regulations.

That the ACBL doesn't enforce this provision doesn't negate the fact that it exists.

Note: That section of the Handbook goes on under "Systems and Conventions" to say

Quote

A club manager can bar or allow specific conventions and can bar certain conventions in newcomer games but allow them in open games. The types of events for which this applies are club masterpoint games, club championships, club charity events, ACBL-wide events, unit championships, unit charity events, district charity events, and the first level of play in the North American Pairs event. The Alert procedure and the skip bid announcement are procedures used in tournaments and are optional (and strongly encouraged) in club games.

When masterpoints are awarded for overall positions in several locations, such as unit-wide games, STaCs, etc., all conventions in the ACBL General Convention Chart must be allowed unless the conditions of contest specify otherwise. Use of the Alert procedure is mandatory, and the rules that govern skip bid announcements are applicable.

Occasionally special games, such as the GNT event, may be held in clubs. In such a case the club manager must check the conditions of contest to be sure to conduct the game in conformity with the rules.

ACBL recommends that clubs which are inclined to permit patrons to test new or little known conventions or systems restrict such testing to one of several scheduled game sessions. If experience indicates that the majority of the club players welcome this policy, it can be extended easily to other sessions. In any case, players must have the approval of the director before using any convention not specifically authorized.

ACBL recommends that each club post a list of approved conventions in a conspicuous place on its premises.

I've never seen a club post a list of approved conventions. Also, the "optional (and strongly encouraged)" bit seems to directly contradict the statement in my first quote. It seems the left hand and the right hand at HQ need to talk more to each other.

[mycroft]

I agree with the "no posted rules" line - although we did have the GCC (and Alert Procedure) posted behind the TD's desk, and I ran all my games as GCC, and frequently had recourse to the actual chart to prove my statements.

The "optional (and strongly encouraged)" part doesn't necessarily contradict the first quote - the GCC, Alert procedure, skip bid... regulations are mandatory for tournaments (there's a set of regulations for that) and optional (and strongly encouraged) for sanctioned club games.

The only time I believe, with all the weird stuff I used to do, that I wasn't in *full compliance* with the ACBL sanction, was when I ran the university game that was technically Superchart, but if nobody complained (and the crazy system people were willing to play a normal system against the real newbies)...

[Vampyr]

mycroft, on 2012-September-06, 10:22, said:

I ran all my games as GCC, and frequently had recourse to the actual chart to prove my statements.

Is it common for club games in the ACBL to use the GCC? This would seem to totally stifle innovation, which in my experience usually takes place at the club level.

[mycroft]

I would suggest that (not counting university clubs and the like), that "most clubs use GCC" is more liberalizing than what would happen if they didn't, not less.

[aguahombre]

Vampyr, on 2012-September-06, 10:42, said:

Is it common for club games in the ACBL to use the GCC? This would seem to totally stifle innovation, which in my experience usually takes place at the club level.

It doesn't seem much different from your "levels" distinctions. GCC is the norm for Club-level. Club directors/managers have considerable leeway, and it is much more common for clubs to allow certain mid-chart stuff (cleared through them in advance) than it is for them to apply further restrictions. The latter could get them in trouble with the ACBL.

[mjj29]

aguahombre, on 2012-September-06, 15:41, said:

It doesn't seem much different from your "levels" distinctions. GCC is the norm for Club-level. Club directors/managers have considerable leeway, and it is much more common for clubs to allow certain mid-chart stuff (cleared through them in advance) than it is for them to apply further restrictions. The latter could get them in trouble with the ACBL.

Yes, Except that the GCC is way more restrictive than the levels which are commonly in use at clubs in England. We have Level 2, 3, 4 and 5 (and 4 and 5 are basically identical). Virtually nothing is run at level 2, clubs are all at least level 3 and many are run at level 4. Level 3 includes multi 2D (which I think is midchart in the US?). Level 4 includes several brown-sticker 2s and basically every non-HUM system with natural major suit openings. They certainly allow us to open 1NT with a singleton (-;

[blackshoe]

mycroft, on 2012-September-06, 10:22, said:

The "optional (and strongly encouraged)" part doesn't necessarily contradict the first quote - the GCC, Alert procedure, skip bid... regulations are mandatory for tournaments (there's a set of regulations for that) and optional (and strongly encouraged) for sanctioned club games.

I think it does contradict it - "full compliance" to me means just that. Unless the regulation itself (I'm thinking of alert and bidbox regs here) specifically gives clubs the right to not use them or modify them. I don't think either does, but I haven't looked lately.

mycroft, on 2012-September-06, 10:22, said:

The only time I believe, with all the weird stuff I used to do, that I wasn't in *full compliance* with the ACBL sanction, was when I ran the university game that was technically Superchart, but if nobody complained (and the crazy system people were willing to play a normal system against the real newbies)...

This one I don't understand. The convention regulation, in the introduction to the GCC part of it, specifically gives clubs full authority to regulate conventions in their games. So if your club wants to allow the Superchart, go for it. As for the about playing against newbies, well, a club can make a regulation that the Superchart isn't allowed against newbies - that's implicit in "full authority to regulate conventions", but it has to be explicit and published in advance - and it probably has to define "newbie".

[Bbradley62]

blackshoe, on 2012-September-06, 17:45, said:

As for the about playing against newbies, well, a club can make a regulation that the Superchart isn't allowed against newbies - that's implicit in "full authority to regulate conventions", but it has to be explicit and published in advance - and it probably has to define "newbie".

So, a pair that plays Superchart conventions in most rounds would have to carry an alternate convention card to use against certain opponents? That doesn't sound right.

[blackshoe]

Bbradley62, on 2012-September-06, 17:50, said:

So, a pair that plays Superchart conventions in most rounds would have to carry an alternate convention card to use against certain opponents? That doesn't sound right.

<shrug> It may not sound right, but it's a logical conclusion of two regulations, one of which says you have to have two substantially completed identical system cards describing the methods you are using and the other of which says you can play Superchart methods, but not against newbies.

[gnasher]

blackshoe, on 2012-September-06, 17:45, said:

This one I don't understand. The convention regulation, in the introduction to the GCC part of it, specifically gives clubs full authority to regulate conventions in their games. So if your club wants to allow the Superchart, go for it. As for the about playing against newbies, well, a club can make a regulation that the Superchart isn't allowed against newbies - that's implicit in "full authority to regulate conventions", but it has to be explicit and published in advance - and it probably has to define "newbie".

It would be fairer and less divisive to say that you can only play Superchart methods if the opponents explicitly agree, with a presumption that they don't.

[FrancesHinden]

mjj29, on 2012-September-06, 16:13, said:

Yes, Except that the GCC is way more restrictive than the levels which are commonly in use at clubs in England. We have Level 2, 3, 4 and 5 (and 4 and 5 are basically identical). Virtually nothing is run at level 2, clubs are all at least level 3 and many are run at level 4. Level 3 includes multi 2D (which I think is midchart in the US?). Level 4 includes several brown-sticker 2s and basically every non-HUM system with natural major suit openings. They certainly allow us to open 1NT with a singleton (-;

Technically/theoretically the difference between 4 and 5 is enormous, much bigger than that between 3 and 4 or 2 and 3. The reason it doesn't appear to make a big difference in practice is that virtually no-one plays any of the things that are allowed at level 5 and not at level 4.

[barmar]

Here's what the ACBL Club Director's Handbook (Conventions, p.65) says:

Quote

1. Any conventions may be allowed or disallowed at the discretion of the club’s management.
2. Players must have the approval of the club director before using any convention not specifically
authorized. (It is suggested that each club post a list of approved conventions in a conspicuous
place on its premises.)
3. The conventions allowed in a game may vary in accordance with the masterpoint level of the
contestants. The basis for the determinations at each club (or each session of a club) should be
what is most desirable for the players at that game.
4. What conventions a club allows or does not allow has no effect on the club’s rating.
5. Clubs inclined to permit patrons to test new or little-known conventions or systems are advised to
restrict such testing to one of several scheduled sessions. If experience indicates the majority of
the club players welcome this policy, it can easily be extended to other sessions.

[mycroft]

blackshoe, on 2012-September-06, 17:45, said:

I think it does contradict it - "full compliance" to me means just that. Unless the regulation itself (I'm thinking of alert and bidbox regs here) specifically gives clubs the right to not use them or modify them. I don't think either does, but I haven't looked lately.

I believe what's going on is that the tournament regulations specifically state that those two regulations apply; and that the club games that you quoted state that we really suggest you apply them there too. But you know what a lawyer would do to the ACBL regulations, and why we don't apply them with Legal precision...

mycroft, on 2012-September-06, 10:22, said:

The only time I believe, with all the weird stuff I used to do, that I wasn't in *full compliance* with the ACBL sanction, was when I ran the university game that was technically Superchart, but if nobody complained (and the crazy system people were willing to play a normal system against the real newbies)...

Quote

This one I don't understand. The convention regulation, in the introduction to the GCC part of it, specifically gives clubs full authority to regulate conventions in their games. So if your club wants to allow the Superchart, go for it. As for the about playing against newbies, well, a club can make a regulation that the Superchart isn't allowed against newbies - that's implicit in "full authority to regulate conventions", but it has to be explicit and published in advance - and it probably has to define "newbie".

Ah, you're missing which way off Superchart I was going. Mycroft the player might have heard in the bar (of course they never told Mycroft the TD this) of auctions that started Pass-1♥ (artificial game force, showing 13+), or of a low heart signal showing a desire for a club switch, because partner knew he had the missing high trump honour)...

And then there was the (in)famous "4♣: request to LHO of a date after the game" convention. I don't *think* that one's allowed on any of the regular charts (and I'm almost certain it was never used, just put on the card).

Bbradley62, on 2012-September-06, 17:50, said:

So, a pair that plays Superchart conventions in most rounds would have to carry an alternate convention card to use against certain opponents? That doesn't sound right.

We *also* had in this club players who were on lesson 3 of the Club series, that started the previous week. CoC was that you don't scare the newbies, even if you've decided to have fun. "Newbies" was "when obvious", but also "if these opponents aren't the type to have this kind of fun" (very very rare, it was a university after all). By and large one just defaulted to "Comfy Lounge standard" with or without a weak NT. "Everybody" could play that, or they couldn't play in the dropin game. Explanations for the newbies were Expected.