[SteveMoe]

Your hand, should you choose to accept it is:

---

Partner is a reliable advanced player.
You have discussed for weeks the foolishness of the 3N gambling opening. It wrong sides the contract and reveals too much about the opener's hand in 1st and 2nd seat. Now that you have one yourself you can scarcely believe your eyes/ears when partner puts 3N on the table...

Your methods are simple - minor is pass/correct. You are not sure we have ever discussed what a Major suit bid would be. You assume it is control showing (is it?). 4N Is completely undiscussed. Partner must have AKQ10xxx at a bare minimum.

The recent post by Quartic Replacement for Gambling 3N is still whispering in your ear.

So, do you pass, hoping pard has something useful in [spades}?
Do you bid 4♣, knowing partner would correct to ♦ on this hand?
Do you Bid 4♦ perhaps expecting we have 3-losers in the majors?
Do you bid 4♣ expecting to rebid 5♣ over partner's correction to 4♦?

One consideration you have is that partner probably has a better chance of reahing your hand in ♣ that you have of reaching partner's in ♦. When there is a major transportation issue it's often right to let partner's suit be trumps.

Have you ever had partner reempt your Gambling 3N opening bid with their own?

Here's the full hand...

---

Opponents can make 4[spades].

Results where all over the place!

[twoshy]

I don't play anything too fancy, though I think it's important to use 4M as to play and 4♦ as an enquiry, so that partner can show their shortage if they have one.

Pass is out, even if partner has ♠Qxx we still have no play. I'd just bid 5♦, I don't think anything fancy is warranted and I definitely want to hide this hand (in case they get any ideas about cutting partner off from our hand).

[jjsb]

basically , in bbo u just cant have 16 identical result (i never seen it if someone had one pls paste and copy) so with a hand like that when u said "result were all over the place" i think i see what u mean
ok all that said there is nothing sure in that hand , just that as said previously im not going to play 3nt. they migth have 4S we migth have a minor contract they migth lead wrongly so im bidding 5D and open my eyes then on the lead
now for system , not sure why we discuss this with my p when we do have so much more thigns to discuss more important but on 3nt we do play
4D is asking for dhortness
and 4nt is askign for a Q or a 8 card as we migth one of those.
all the rest is natural

regards
syl

[Quantumcat]

I would bid 4♣ followed by 5♦ over the expected 4♦. Pard might have the king of spades and a singleton heart, so we want him declarer (don't want it to go spade through the ace, spade, heart). Singleton spade and two or more hearts is less likely (with which we want me to be declarer).

I think we should be in game: for game to go down, pard must have a bad hand, and the opponents have to find the right lead, and the aces be badly situated.

[Codo]

With "no outside A/K" statet in the op, it is unlikely to find the K of spades in partners hand.

I would bid 5 ♦ and pass whatever will happen later.

[Quantumcat]

Codo, on 2012-September-24, 04:46, said:

With "no outside A/K" statet in the op, it is unlikely to find the K of spades in partners hand.

SteveMoe, on 2012-September-23, 20:12, said:

Now that you have one yourself you can scarcely believe your eyes/ears when partner puts 3N on the table...

He says he has a gambling 3NT, so I assumed his partner could have a similar hand.

If he is actually not allowed to have a singleton ace or king, I will bid 4♦ (to protect the ♥K) - it is very unlikely partner has a singleton spade, and you won't be able to make 11 tricks. If, however, the 4♦ bid is overcalled very confidently and firmly with 4♠, and if perhaps the other opponent sits up and starts resorting their hand - I might consider 5♦. If you bid 5♦ right now then you must have looked at the hand record and/or are hoping an opponent might lead away from their ♥A?

[the_clown]

5♦

[Cyberyeti]

Quantumcat, on 2012-September-24, 05:04, said:

He says he has a gambling 3NT, so I assumed his partner could have a similar hand.

If he is actually not allowed to have a singleton ace or king, I will bid 4♦ (to protect the ♥K) - it is very unlikely partner has a singleton spade, and you won't be able to make 11 tricks. If, however, the 4♦ bid is overcalled very confidently and firmly with 4♠, and if perhaps the other opponent sits up and starts resorting their hand - I might consider 5♦. If you bid 5♦ right now then you must have looked at the hand record and/or are hoping an opponent might lead away from their ♥A?

Except that if you play the normal system of responses to G3N 4♦ is the singleton ask so you can't play there from your side.

[Codo]

Quantumcat, on 2012-September-24, 05:04, said:

He says he has a gambling 3NT, so I assumed his partner could have a similar hand.

If he is actually not allowed to have a singleton ace or king, I will bid 4♦ (to protect the ♥K) - it is very unlikely partner has a singleton spade, and you won't be able to make 11 tricks. If, however, the 4♦ bid is overcalled very confidently and firmly with 4♠, and if perhaps the other opponent sits up and starts resorting their hand - I might consider 5♦. If you bid 5♦ right now then you must have looked at the hand record and/or are hoping an opponent might lead away from their ♥A?

1. Read in the diagramm, no outside Kings.
2. 4 ♦ is a question and even if it is not, it let LHO easily in for a 4 ♠ bid. This may ort may not make, but I will pay my insurance now and not after they bid 4 ♠.
3. Even if partner has xx,xx in the majors, they may try to cash a second heart, because LHO lead was not easy too read for RHO:

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Sry, but 5D is an invite to play 6C.

If someone anouces a running solid 7 to 8 card suit, this is supposed to be the trump suit
for the partnership.

Hence 4C.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

P_Marlowe, on 2012-September-24, 06:03, said:

Hi,

Sry, but 5D is an invite to play 6C.

If someone anouces a running solid 7 to 8 card suit, this is supposed to be the trump suit
for the partnership.

Hence 4C.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Never heard this one, in my book 5♦ says that I know you have diamonds, and I want to declare 5♦ to protect my cards.

What would you ever bid 5♦ on in your world that you wouldn't start with 4♦ ?

[Fluffy]

I think 5♦ is obvious, never heard of it being treated as artificial.

[Quantumcat]

If you have no discussed system, it seems like 4♦ pass or correct is the most straightforward sensible meaning that partner is likely to get right (he is also guessing the meaning, and will go for the simplest most obvious one).

Edit (response to Phil below:)

SteveMoe, on 2012-September-23, 20:12, said:

Do you Bid 4♦ perhaps expecting we have 3-losers in the majors?

According to Steve, 4♦ is pass/correct.

[Phil]

4♦ is frequently played as a shortness ask.

This seems more useful than pass/correct.

[Phil]

jjsb, on 2012-September-24, 00:35, said:

basically , in bbo u just cant have 16 identical result (i never seen it if someone had one pls paste and copy) so with a hand like that when u said "result were all over the place" i think i see what u mean
ok all that said there is nothing sure in that hand , just that as said previously im not going to play 3nt. they migth have 4S we migth have a minor contract they migth lead wrongly so im bidding 5D and open my eyes then on the lead
now for system , not sure why we discuss this with my p when we do have so much more thigns to discuss more important but on 3nt we do play
4D is asking for dhortness
and 4nt is askign for a Q or a 8 card as we migth one of those.
all the rest is natural

regards
syl

Between the thread title, and a jjsb post, I thought this was another one in Justin's necro-fest.

[rmnka447]

P_Marlowe, on 2012-September-24, 06:03, said:

Hi,

Sry, but 5D is an invite to play 6C.

If someone anouces a running solid 7 to 8 card suit, this is supposed to be the trump suit
for the partnership.

Hence 4C.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Traditionally, 4 ♦ asks for shortness. Any number of ♦s beyond that (5 ♦, 6 ♦) is to play. 6 ♦ is what you'd bid with something like ♠ Ax ♥ Kx ♦ xxx ♣ AKQJxx where you want to protect the Kx position from being led through.


I'm just bidding 4 ♣ with this hand.

[wank]

i would bid 4♣ and pass 4♦ and be happy to defend if opps bid. obv not a success here.

[the hog]

I was going to pen a reply yesterday but decided not to. After thinking about this problem last night my take is as follows:
I bid 4C and pass the correction to 4D. You will almost certainly not make 5D and to bid this is foolish.
To the po9sters wanting to bid 4D directly. Most play this as a singleton ask;4C is pass/correct. Again it is a waste to have 2 pass/correct bids.

[mike777]

SteveMoe, on 2012-September-23, 20:12, said:

Your hand, should you choose to accept it is:

---

Partner is a reliable advanced player.
You have discussed for weeks the foolishness of the 3N gambling opening. It wrong sides the contract and reveals too much about the opener's hand in 1st and 2nd seat. Now that you have one yourself you can scarcely believe your eyes/ears when partner puts 3N on the table...

Your methods are simple - minor is pass/correct. You are not sure we have ever discussed what a Major suit bid would be. You assume it is control showing (is it?). 4N Is completely undiscussed. Partner must have AKQ10xxx at a bare minimum.

The recent post by Quartic Replacement for Gambling 3N is still whispering in your ear.

So, do you pass, hoping pard has something useful in [spades}?
Do you bid 4♣, knowing partner would correct to ♦ on this hand?
Do you Bid 4♦ perhaps expecting we have 3-losers in the majors?
Do you bid 4♣ expecting to rebid 5♣ over partner's correction to 4♦?

One consideration you have is that partner probably has a better chance of reahing your hand in ♣ that you have of reaching partner's in ♦. When there is a major transportation issue it's often right to let partner's suit be trumps.

Have you ever had partner reempt your Gambling 3N opening bid with their own?

Here's the full hand...

---

Opponents can make 4[spades].

Results where all over the place!

my plan is pass and 5d over 4s by opp.

with an extreme hand I choose to bid over 4s.

yes I see 3nt goes down a ton but prefer opp make the last guess.

[the hog]

mike777, on 2012-September-24, 20:45, said:

my plan is pass and 5d over 4s by opp.

with an extreme hand I choose to bid over 4s.

yes I see 3nt goes down a ton but prefer opp make the last guess.

If you bid 5D over 4S then YOU are taking the last guess. Its far better to make your stand now.