[MickyB]

1N:2S
3C:3S
4D

2S = clubs or 2N bid
3C = max
3S = shortage

If you think 4D is a cue, then is opener's 4H over 3S also a cue?

In situations where a minor has been explicitly agreed we play 4m as non-serious and cuebidding as serious.

[karlson]

Cue. Also 4H.

I suppose if you play natural slam tries, it's that, but for sure it shows clubs (and a serious try by your agreements).

[Codo]

Boths are cues for me.

[dake50]

Where is keys-ask? Only 4NT? May be forced too high.
I think the step above 4C=not 3NT, should be Key-ask.

[FrancesHinden]

Does responder have a way of showing both minors (4-5 or 4-6)?
If not, it's natural.

[JLOGIC]

4H should definitely be natural, you might have a 5-3 or good 4-3 (ruffing value in the short hand) fit. 4D is more debatable.

[MickyB]

JLOGIC, on 2012-October-22, 15:51, said:

4H should definitely be natural, you might have a 5-3 or good 4-3 (ruffing value in the short hand) fit. 4D is more debatable.

Yeah that's kinda what I figured. I created a problem for myself on this hand, I was 1345 invite that I decided to treat as 1336 when pard accepted. When pard bid 4D, I had to guess how he meant it. Needless to say, I got it wrong.

[Phil]

JLOGIC, on 2012-October-22, 15:51, said:

4H should definitely be natural, you might have a 5-3 or good 4-3 (ruffing value in the short hand) fit. 4D is more debatable.

6-3 diamond fit?

[PhilKing]

It could be right to play seven of a red on a 43 or 42 fit.

[bluecalm]

Quote

In situations where a minor has been explicitly agreed we play 4m as non-serious and cuebidding as serious.

I think this is very good agreement and should apply here so 4D/4H = cuebid and good hand opposite ♠ shortness.
This comes from someone who don't do 1NT with 5M-3-3-2 though.
If I played that 5-3-3-2 15-17 opens 1NT then I would definitely want to have some system to find about our heart fit below 4H in this sequence.
Not having such system I still prefer a cue here. It will be very difficult to make any kind of informed decision here if 4H is just hearts. Not because we miss 4H bid but because we skip D cuebid with 5hearts.

[JLOGIC]

PhilKing, on 2012-October-22, 16:42, said:

It could be right to play seven of a red on a 43 or 42 fit.

lol you think that playing 4H when it is right is something negligible or unimportant? We are talking about playing in four of a major when we might easily have a fit there and it might easily be the best game. Giving this up in order to be able to show a CUEBID with no diamond control when you can just bid 4C with that hand type is silly, sorry.

[JLOGIC]

I am sure you will gain from the times you miss the super unlikely 4H contract (when partner often has 3 hearts, and you will sometimes have 5 hearts) by having a bid available to show no diamond control to go with your weak or prime spades (no 3N bid), and have that somehow be different from bidding 4C and then 4H over 4D (since partner will need a diamond control and a slam try for slam). ::rollseyes::

[bluecalm]

But I assume that if you play 4H natural here you also use it with cue available and with max/min hand. If not then you only gain if you have max and no diamond cue and 5 hearts. If yes you lose on all the hands you are bidding your hearts instead of investigating ♣ slam.

[JLOGIC]

I wasn't really talking about you, if you do not open 1N with 5 hearts then it seems much more reasonable for 4H to be a cue. It seems completely ridiculous that we are compelling our side to lose 5-3 heart fits after 1N in auctions where partner has shown an unbalanced hand with shortness in another suit if that is possible to hold.

Yes, having natural bids might hurt your auction when partner is slamming but how is it not important to play 4H with a 5-3 fit here? Isn't that one of the most basic rule of bridge?

Edit: Also, how bad is my hand gonna be for slam? Partner showed short spades and I elected to not play 3N. By default if partner is slamming and I don't bid 3N in response to his shortness, I am slam positive. The fact that I also introduce my 5 card suit will allow partner to judge his critical holding in that suit well.

I guess usually my partners have an 8/9/10/11 count and he was just looking for the best game and I am trying to offer one while also conveying a useful message and point if he has a slam try (I don't have much spade wastage, I have long hearts). Our auction is not over from there, partner can still try for slam if he wants to invite our judgement on how good our hand is in that context. A diamond control is really not relevant from the standpoint of OMG DO WE HAVE A DIAMOND CONTROL FOR SLAM, it is less likely that we are going to bid slam off the AK of diamonds in this auction (where we already have a lack of spade values and apparently have good hands) than it is that we belong in 7H in the 4-3.

I am just shocked that people would play 4H as anything but natural here. All of the beginner cliches GAME OVER SLAM, THE GOLDEN FIT are ringing in my head. Yeah, maybe too simplistic but come on sometimes bridge is really that simple imo. I mean, partner has shown 2-3 hearts and 8+ points and a stiff spade, to me it is just obvious that we can offer 4H when we could have 5 hearts in that spot.

[JLOGIC]

Even in your system bluecalm where 1N denies a 5 card major, if 4H were an offer to play it is a pretty damn descriptive bid, you have 4 chunky hearts and not much in spades. I don't know why you would worry this would be so destructive to your slam bidding if you have a slam, I think it would be pretty awesome for slam bidding for partner to know about this possible source of tricks, and he still has a move (or 2 depending on what 4N is for you) to invite your judgement on whether you are min or max for that auction. And you also gain when 4H is the right spot, I know 4-3 fits a priori are not the most likely best spots but auctions where dummy has a stiff in a suit and 3 in the trump suit are the most likely auctions for this to occur (eg 1N 3S showing 13xx, wouldnt everyone play 4H to play even if they couldn't have 4 hearts? That is pretty common). Being concerned about diamond controls is wrong imo when you have KQJx or AQJx or... and the opportunity to show that and still have room. Partner will be very well placed.

And once again if I have no diamond control as the 1N opener 4C 4D 4H is a pretty reasonable start, once again partner still has room to involve us.

I might lose some degree of precision in my cuebidding (like 4C min, 4H cue, then I can be involved with a good min), but at some point it is overkill and we face diminishing returns on this kind of precision, showing things like sources of tricks or being able to play the best game when we know it and its right and not super unlikely have a lot of merit. This is even more overkill if the auction can go 4C 4D 4H 4S and 4N is just "good but not great" type of stuff.

Anyways I think it is moot if we can have 5 hearts since there is now much much more gain in being able to play 4H.

[bluecalm]

Ok, so to make sure I am getting this right you would bid 4H in "american" style with:
Jxx AQJxx Qx AQx and:
Jxx AQJxx Kx AJx
And in "Italian/Polish" style with:
Jxx AQJx Qxx AQx and:
Jxx AQJx Kxx AJx

Am I getting this right ?
I wanna make sure so I can deal some hands and see how this idea works out.
My main question is if you always bid 4H now with 5 hearts if you don't want to bid 3NT or are there some hands with 5 hearts which bid 4C/4D instead.

[JLOGIC]

Yes. Your sample does contain only Jxx of spade hand types which I would worry about, you are giving some exceptional hands and ignoring hands like Axxx AQJx Axx xx where it becomes more likely 4H is the right contract and less likely 6C is, your hands are not close to a full sample of the range of 4H bids but if you just want to see how it works out on those hands be my guest. In particular, even though Jxx AQJxx Kx AJx is such an exceptionally good hand for this auction (the type of hand that you would cream your pants and be like ZOMG if you ever held it on this auction, because you never do and its such an extraordinary outlier even among hands that won't bid 3N over 3S), I would still bid 4H as partner (if he has a spade) needs the HK, the DA and the CKQ, that is just a lot and I am not willing to not bid 4H and risk missing it opposite the much more likely 8 or 9 or 10 counts where 4H makes and 5C doesnt.

[bluecalm]

I don't want to ignore any hands. I am just asking if you bid 4H regarless of trump quality/diamond cue/overall hand quality.
I understand that the answer is yes

What is subsequent bidding btw ? Let's say it goes 4H is RKCB on clubs now ? or maybe for 6keycards ? What is 4S ?

[Fluffy]

sorry, are we talking about 4♥ by opener, or 4♥ over 4♦ by responder?