[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2012-December-25, 00:27, said:

Played bridge? Aren't playing cards the Devil's tramtickets?

Another S.W. joke is apropos: "Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died."

[Trinidad]

Vampyr, on 2012-December-25, 00:27, said:

mr1303, on 2012-December-24, 06:41, said:

I have an ex-girlfriend who felt sorry for me because I was going to go to hell. That might've had something to do with the fact that she is an ex-girlfriend. Worst thing about it was that she played bridge as well.

Played bridge? Aren't playing cards the Devil's tramtickets?

So, that's the thing. He will meet her there. If that's not hell, what is?



Rik

[kenberg]

I offer this story about how decisions actually get made.

We visited friends over the holidays, a husband and wife. We somehow got to talking about our early years. The wife had once been a Postulate. I think that is the correct word for someone studying to be a nun, She went in when she was eighteen and left after seven months.The decision to go in was her own, the decision to leave was her own. She had hoped to teach in a Catholic school. Academic training was of course provided but the life was very regimented, in particular she felt she needed more time for her studies. During the time allotted for exercise she would walk with another Postulate discussing studies. I am certain, with a minimum of 100% certainty, that the reason supplied was the actual reason for this budding relationship with a fellow student, but for whatever reason this was forbidden by the rules. There were other aspects of the training that grated on her, but this apparently was the proverbial straw.

Mostly, I like to see people make their own decisions as they see fit. I have never seen why other people should see things the same way that I do.

[blackshoe]

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort." — Robert A. Heinlein, From the Notebooks of Lazarus Long.

[Fluffy]

Grandfather passed away today, and same as when my mother passed away or also someone close, I feel that somehow I am connected on this moments to some form of spiritual world where they are now. Its hard to explain, but lets just say that I feel very spiritual.

Atheists might laugh and explain why dealing with pain is one of the forms that originates religion and blablabla, but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:
-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?, no need to explain the rationality behind the feeling, just curious if you experience it or not.


Also want to know, when something like this happens, my first thoughts are always extremelly egocentric, IE: how does this affect me?, when I was young I was very ashamed of myself for thinking along those lines first, but althou I have kind of willed for, I haven't changed that way of thinking the least. I might feel better if people tell me everyone's first reaction is the same.

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-02, 17:16, said:

Grandfather passed away today, and same as when my mother passed away or also someone close, I feel that somehow I am connected on this moments to some form of spiritual world where they are now. Its hard to explain, but lets just say that I feel very spiritual.

Atheists might laugh and explain why dealing with pain is one of the forms that originates religion and blablabla, but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:
-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?, no need to explain the rationality behind the feeling, just curious if you experience it or not.


Also want to know, when something like this happens, my first thoughts are always extremelly egocentric, IE: how does this affect me?, when I was young I was very ashamed of myself for thinking along those lines first, but althou I have kind of willed for, I haven't changed that way of thinking the least. I might feel better if people tell me everyone's first reaction is the same.

Condolences about your grandfather. When my mother died about 10 years ago after a 3+ year struggle with cancer I felt nothing like that, just a relief that her pain was finally over, and far more of a sense of bereavement than I ever thought I would given that I knew that day was coming for a while.

[dwar0123]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-02, 17:16, said:

Atheists might laugh

But they probably won't.

My condolences on your loss

[kenberg]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-02, 17:16, said:

Grandfather passed away today, and same as when my mother passed away or also someone close, I feel that somehow I am connected on this moments to some form of spiritual world where they are now. Its hard to explain, but lets just say that I feel very spiritual.

Atheists might laugh and explain why dealing with pain is one of the forms that originates religion and blablabla, but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:
-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?, no need to explain the rationality behind the feeling, just curious if you experience it or not.


Also want to know, when something like this happens, my first thoughts are always extremelly egocentric, IE: how does this affect me?, when I was young I was very ashamed of myself for thinking along those lines first, but althou I have kind of willed for, I haven't changed that way of thinking the least. I might feel better if people tell me everyone's first reaction is the same.

First, no, I would not laugh. My experinces have been varied.

My maternal grandfather dies when I was five or six. I sang about it until my mother made me stop. My maternal grandmother died in our home when I was in high school. I was sort of numb, is the way I recall it. My father's mother died near his birth, his father died when he was twelve, so of course I never knew them.

My mother died from cancer when I was 24. It was an awful death that I won't describe further. I came home after her death and threw up until there was nothing left inside of me. My father died when I was 38, and I was more prepared to cope. I was with him a lot until the end. It was long past the end of visiting hours, I was going out to eat and asked them if I could come back afterward. The nurse said yes but also I could just stay if I wished. I didn't grasp her meaning, and when I came back he was gone.

To my mind, atheism is largely an intellectual position. Of course it also is something of a way of life. But it does not in any way prevent me from spiritual reflections and feelings. I am 74, as of yesterday. Far, far too many people are not around anymore.

My oldeer daughter was born before my mother passed on. That was important to her. I expect your grandfather was pleased to have seen you married. We old people have come to grasp what matters.

The very best to you, and when it all comes down, we seek our solace where we find it.


Ken

[mikeh]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-02, 17:16, said:

Grandfather passed away today, and same as when my mother passed away or also someone close, I feel that somehow I am connected on this moments to some form of spiritual world where they are now. Its hard to explain, but lets just say that I feel very spiritual.

Atheists might laugh and explain why dealing with pain is one of the forms that originates religion and blablabla, but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:
-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?, no need to explain the rationality behind the feeling, just curious if you experience it or not.


Also want to know, when something like this happens, my first thoughts are always extremelly egocentric, IE: how does this affect me?, when I was young I was very ashamed of myself for thinking along those lines first, but althou I have kind of willed for, I haven't changed that way of thinking the least. I might feel better if people tell me everyone's first reaction is the same.

I hope nobody, atheist or otherwise, would laugh at anyone's grief on such a loss.

I also think that the feeling you describe is a nearly universal human characteristic. I say 'nearly' because I gather there are people who lack empathy (they're called sociopaths, I think).

The fact that I, for one, am interested in understanding how the brain/mind functions doesn't mean that I want to emulate Spock, from Star Trek. Emotions are a huge part of what being human is, and we can't deny their importance without doing ourselves a lot of psychological harm, as I understand matters.

My condolences.


btw: the word is 'gibberish' with 2 'b's

[BunnyGo]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-02, 17:16, said:

Grandfather passed away today, and same as when my mother passed away or also someone close, I feel that somehow I am connected on this moments to some form of spiritual world where they are now. Its hard to explain, but lets just say that I feel very spiritual.

Atheists might laugh and explain why dealing with pain is one of the forms that originates religion and blablabla, but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:
-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?, no need to explain the rationality behind the feeling, just curious if you experience it or not.


Also want to know, when something like this happens, my first thoughts are always extremelly egocentric, IE: how does this affect me?, when I was young I was very ashamed of myself for thinking along those lines first, but althou I have kind of willed for, I haven't changed that way of thinking the least. I might feel better if people tell me everyone's first reaction is the same.

My condolences for your loss.

Since you asked, I'll second all the previous responses that I doubt any reasonable person would laugh.

My grandfather died about a year ago. I do not recall any spiritual feelings at the time, but his death had been coming for over a decade, and mentally he had passed many years prior.

I too have experienced the "how does this affect me" feelings during times of strife, or grief. I too have felt badly about this.

[Winstonm]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-02, 17:16, said:

Grandfather passed away today, and same as when my mother passed away or also someone close, I feel that somehow I am connected on this moments to some form of spiritual world where they are now. Its hard to explain, but lets just say that I feel very spiritual.

Atheists might laugh and explain why dealing with pain is one of the forms that originates religion and blablabla, but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:
-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?, no need to explain the rationality behind the feeling, just curious if you experience it or not.


Also want to know, when something like this happens, my first thoughts are always extremelly egocentric, IE: how does this affect me?, when I was young I was very ashamed of myself for thinking along those lines first, but althou I have kind of willed for, I haven't changed that way of thinking the least. I might feel better if people tell me everyone's first reaction is the same.

Odd that I read this post tonight when only this afternoon I was thinking about my own feelings about the loss of my wife. I would not, never have, and never will disparage someone for his manner of handling grief, including believing a religion.

For myself, though, it was bittersweet to think that my wife is gone, utterly and forever. I understood the need or at least the desire to think or imagine of a better outcome - it is hard to accept our lives as simply biological events that ultimately have no meaning other than that which we ourselves assign.

Death is never a good thing. I feel for you having to take a turn dealing with it. It does get easier with time, so take heart in that.

Winston

[Fluffy]

Yeah its stupid to think you would laugh at something like this, what I meant was soem sort od defy because that I wouldn't care the least if you did, without going lengthy my grandfather had the best life of anyone I ever knew and if someone deserves to go to heaven it must be him, I have some grief but I have nothing to regret.

[Fluffy]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-January-02, 17:34, said:

Condolences about your grandfather. When my mother died about 10 years ago after a 3+ year struggle with cancer I felt nothing like that, just a relief that her pain was finally over, and far more of a sense of bereavement than I ever thought I would given that I knew that day was coming for a while.

Can't even begin to imagine how 3 years of stuggle can be handled, my mom had 1 month of extreme agony and I was so ripped apart that my brain has blocked all my memories from that tragic month. I can access those memories 'directly' if I want (I don't), but they are very scarcely connected to other memories in the sense that nothing will remind me of that moments, and they are not used as experience to evaluate anything.

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-03, 01:42, said:

Can't even begin to imagine how 3 years of stuggle can be handled, my mom had 1 month of extreme agony and I was so ripped apart that my brain has blocked all my memories from that tragic month. I can access those memories 'directly' if I want (I don't), but they are very scarcely connected to other memories in the sense that nothing will remind me of that moments, and they are not used as experience to evaluate anything.

Well much of the 3 years was not too bad. My father retired (a year or so early) immediately they got the diagnosis and they spent the good time between the chemo bouts ticking all the stuff off their to do list they could. It was only during some of the chemo and the last month or two that were really rough.

[Cthulhu D]

I disagree with the poll. The definition of tolerance is flawed. I can be both tolerant and begrudge the intolerant their views. Discussion:

Quote

Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal. - Karl Popper.

I am prepared to defend a tolerant society, and it is not right to tolerate the intolerant. An incitement to intolerance, such as backers of proposition 8 in America or whatever, should be regarded as criminal.

[Trinidad]

Gonzalo, I am very sorry for your loss.

You are asking if we have had some kind of spiritual feeling when someone close passed away. I haven't. When most of my grandparents passed away I was still relatively young and the one feeling that I had is: "My grandfather/mother is not there anymore". As I grew older, I got more involved, the feelings of sadness and gratefulness to have had such a nice family member were deeper. But I never had any spiritual feelings.

The same is true when my children were born: I felt immense happiness, joy, I was proud, but nothing spiritual.

So, the short answer is "no". But why would I want to deny you your spiritual experience? Or laugh about your experience and your interpretation of it as something spiritual? Who am I to do that? That is your experience, your life, your religion. I will respect these experiences irrespective of the religious background. And -when I am not bothered by day to day things- I will defend your right to have these experiences and to view them as spiritual.

Many religious people return the favor: they respect my lack of religion and will defend my right to be non-religious. My problems with religion come when others tell me what I should experience, or what I can or can't do because their religion says so. In short: when religious people don't allow me the freedom that I allow them. But as long as people tolerate my lack of religion, I will tolerate their religion.

Rik

[mgoetze]

Trinidad, on 2013-January-04, 08:19, said:

I will defend your right to have these experiences and to view them as spiritual.

I, on the other hand, will claim that you have not properly defined "spiritual" and thus I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Trinidad]

mgoetze, on 2013-January-04, 08:59, said:

I, on the other hand, will claim that you have not properly defined "spiritual" and thus I have no idea what you're talking about.

So what? Why do you have to have an idea what he is talking about? If he is happy, proud, or humble about his "spiritual" experiences, I can share his feelings, which -in my view of the world- means that molecules in my brain are influenced by the molecules in his brain. I don't feel a need for definition, if he doesn't need to.

The fact that "spiritual" doesn't have much meaning for you and me doesn't mean that it can't have meaning for Gonzalo. And forcing him to define it, in terms of our value system, is exactly what we think is bad in religion: They have -throughout the ages and still now- forced their value system on us. Why would we make the same silly mistake?

Rik

[mgoetze]

Trinidad, on 2013-January-04, 09:39, said:

So what? Why do you have to have an idea what he is talking about? If he is happy, proud, or humble about his "spiritual" experiences, I can share his feelings, which -in my view of the world- means that molecules in my brain are influenced by the molecules in his brain. I don't feel a need for definition, if he doesn't need to.

Oh, he can feel whatever he likes, that's fine with me - as long as he keeps it to himself. As soon as he tries to convince us of anything, however, he needs to say things that make sense if he wants them to count as arguments - especially when he is insinuating that what I might say is "atheist gibberish" at the same time:

Fluffy, on 2013-January-02, 17:16, said:

but after telling all the atheist giberish most people already know, could you answer this question?:
-do you also produce something similar to this feeling when someone passes away?

How do you plan to answer such a question without knowing what's being asked?

[blackshoe]

First, just to be clear, I'm not religious. I was sort of raised Protestant, but my parents weren't really religious either, and once I was left to make my own decisions I abandoned formal religions.

My father passed away, at home, a couple of years ago. I was there. He was unable to care for himself, so weak he couldn't get out of bed without help, and severely embarrassed to be in that predicament. I remember going to bed the night he passed away, and tossing and turning for several hours, knowing he would die soon and wrestling with the question whether I was okay with it. I finally decided I was, and fell asleep. Dad passed about half an hour later.

Was this a "spiritual experience"? I don't know. I know I miss him. We had our differences, but I do wish he was still here, in good health.