[straube]

South opens 1C. No interference. NV vs V. Please voice your opinion on interference in the "comparing systems" thread.

..........A84
..........A94
..........A954
..........K72
J973...............KT652
JT87...............632
2....................863
QJ53...............64
..........Q
..........KQ5
..........KQJT7
..........AT98



Outcomes

6D N SCREAM
6D S Meckwell Light
6D S Precision by Free
6D N New Big Club
6D S Silent Club
6D N IMPrecision
6D S Relknes
6D N Moscito
6D S OC Precision
6D S Jasmine Club
6D N TOSR

6D S Zelandakh in non-club auction
Polish Club reached 6D in non-club auction
dake50 reached 6D in non-club auction

[straube]

straube, on 2013-January-12, 08:20, said:

South opens 1C. No interference. NV vs V. Please voice your opinion on interference in the "comparing systems" thread.

..........A84
..........A94
..........A954
..........K72
J973...............KT652
JT87...............632
2....................863
QJ53...............64
..........Q
..........KQ5
..........KQJT7
..........AT98

SCREAM would bid...

1C-1D 16+, unbal with major OR bal
1S-1N reverse relaying, asking
2C-2D C/D, asking
2N-3C 5+D/4C higher, asking
3D-3H 1354, asking
3S-4C 10 QPs, asking
4D-4H 0 or 2 top diamonds, asking
4N-5C 1 or 3 top clubs but 0 or 2 top hearts, asking
5S-6D no stiff SK or SA and no CK,

If you notice, I'm opening 1C here despite not having our base 10 QPs because the greater distortion would be to treat this as a 10-15 hcp hand. Sometimes pd can work it out as I think he should on this deal at the point opener denies one of the top two spade honors. I think 6D is justified because we are missing the CQ so we have one club loser, no double stop in spades, and need to ruff something for the twelth trick.

Edit: SCREAM doesn't count the stiff Q as a relay point.

[hrothgar]

1♣ - 1♦ 1D = wide variety of GF hands
3♣ - 3♦ 3C = opener prefers to limit hand by showing rather than asking
3♥ - 3♠ 3H = 1=3=5=4 shape. 3♠ asks for slam points
3N - 6♦ 3N = 9 slam points 6D = we're missing a Queen

Note that MOSCITO doesn't count the stiff Q of Spades towards slam points

[awm]

IMprecision:

1♣ - 1♦ (strong club, double negative or balanced GF or 7+RP)
2♦ - 2♥ (5+♦ one-suited or with 4♣, GF relay)
2♠ - 2NT (4♣, relay)
3♣ - 3♦ (short spades, relay)
3♥ - 3♠ (1354, strength relay)
3NT - 4♣ (9-10 RP, with a prime 15-count it's obvious to relay on)
4♥ - 4♠ (10RP since we do count the spade queen with zero or two top diams, relay)
5♣ - 6♦ (one or three top club and zero or two top hearts, north has the whole hand save jacks and signs off)

We relay a bit further since ♠x ♥KQx ♦KQxxx ♣AQxx was a possibility until late in the auction.

For those who don't count the spade queen, what do you do if responder has instead ♠AKx ♥Axx ♦Axxx ♣xxx? Note that slam is great opposite the actual hand (two club pitches on the spades) but would be lousy if opener lacked the ♠Q (give him a major suit jack as compensating hcp if needed).

[FM75]

OCPrecision

1♣ - 1♠ 8+ balanced
1N - 3♣ Control ask, 7
3♦ - 4♥ suit ask, HHx or Hxxx, sets trump (H = A,K, or Q)
5♣ - 5♠ specific control ask, 2nd round only
6♦

[straube]

awm, on 2013-January-12, 10:52, said:

For those who don't count the spade queen, what do you do if responder has instead ♠AKx ♥Axx ♦Axxx ♣xxx? Note that slam is great opposite the actual hand (two club pitches on the spades) but would be lousy if opener lacked the ♠Q (give him a major suit jack as compensating hcp if needed).

I just know I'm usually disappointed to learn partner has a stiff king (even counted as 1 QP) and think I would be even more disappointed to learn he had a stiff king if it had counted for 2 and I would usually be disappointed to learn pd had a stiff Q counted as 1. We don't learn about the stiff honor 'til very late (using your Parity Cue Bidding) so if we've started our slam investigation based on what we think is a good mesh and discover very high that we don't have that good mesh...

Also, if we need a stiff honor, we can RKC and find that honor...including the Q and even sign off in a different strain.

[awm]

straube, on 2013-January-12, 11:35, said:

I just know I'm usually disappointed to learn partner has a stiff king (even counted as 1 QP) and think I would be even more disappointed to learn he had a stiff king if it had counted for 2 and I would usually be disappointed to learn pd had a stiff Q counted as 1. We don't learn about the stiff honor 'til very late (using your Parity Cue Bidding) so if we've started our slam investigation based on what we think is a good mesh and discover very high that we don't have that good mesh...

Also, if we need a stiff honor, we can RKC and find that honor...including the Q and even sign off in a different strain.

Yes, you have explained this theory before. I was more interested in slight modifications of the actual hand. From the dodge of the question, I get the feeling you might not have the best result?

[hrothgar]

awm, on 2013-January-12, 10:52, said:

For those who don't count the spade queen, what do you do if responder has instead ♠AKx ♥Axx ♦Axxx ♣xxx? Note that slam is great opposite the actual hand (two club pitches on the spades) but would be lousy if opener lacked the ♠Q (give him a major suit jack as compensating hcp if needed).

We don't do as well as you do, however, we also don't have to include all four suits in the scanning order and there's many fewer hand types that we need to consider. As an example, on this hand I didn't need to scan to place honors.

I think that, on average, the gains out weigh the losses.
Your milage may vary.

[straube]

awm, on 2013-January-12, 11:44, said:

Yes, you have explained this theory before. I was more interested in slight modifications of the actual hand. From the dodge of the question, I get the feeling you might not have the best result?

I thought I was obviously conceding that I lose on the deal you created. I mean, I have a point though right? There are tradeoffs here and we both win sometimes

[hrothgar]

awm, on 2013-January-12, 11:44, said:

Yes, you have explained this theory before. I was more interested in slight modifications of the actual hand. From the dodge of the question, I get the feeling you might not have the best result?

Posting a single hand and speculating doesn't prove anything...

If people are seriously interested in studying how efficacious different auction termination structures are, the best option would seem to be implementing bidding bots for various approaches and setting these loose on a large corpus of hands.

[JLOGIC]

1C 2H (14+bal)
3D 3S (3D=MSS, 3S=4 diamonds not 4 clubs)
4H 4N (RKC, 0-3)
5H 6C (king ask, CK, no other kings)
6D

Very unimpressive auction since I would miss a laydown 7 opp Kx of clubs. Finding out about third round club control at some point seems like the key to this hand. Lol at how much better relay systems are gonna be than my auctions for slam, will be embarassing.

[Free]

hrothgar, on 2013-January-12, 08:50, said:

1♣ - 1♦ 1D = wide variety of GF hands
3♣ - 3♦ 3C = opener prefers to limit hand by showing rather than asking
3♥ - 3♠ 3H = 1=3=5=4 shape. 3♠ asks for slam points
3N - 6♦ 3N = 9 slam points 6D = we're missing a Queen

Note that MOSCITO doesn't count the stiff Q of Spades towards slam points

I'd rather ask, exactly because we have the stiff ♠Q which partner will never know about if we show. On this hand it doesn't matter though.

[Free]

Our MW Precision basically uses the MW opening structure and some of its features. It has complex structures after all openings (1M Garrozzo-style, Italian 2NT structure, MW 1♦ and 1NT structure), but the 1♣ opening is kept very Vanilla because we don't play often enough to build a complex structure

As with deal 1, it's more about a good 1NT structure for us.

1♣-1NT (16+ ; balanced 8-10 or 13-15)
2NT-3♣ (Puppet Stayman ; no 5 card M)
3♦-3♥ (any (31)=(54) ; asking)
3♠-4♦ (1=3=(54) ; sets trumps)
4♥-4♠ (even number of keycards ; cue)
4NT-5♣ (♥ cue ; cue)
5NT-6♣ (♦Q but no first round control M ; asking for ♣Q)
6♦-pass (no ♣Q ; ok)

[Hilver]

Hilversumse klaveren

1♣ - 1♦
1NT - 2♦
3♣ - 3♦
3♥ - 4♠
4NT - 5♦
5♥ - 6♣
6♦

Explanation:
1♦ = relay
1NT = 5+ card diamonds
2♦ = relay, at least 7 HCP
3♣ = 4/5 card clubs
3♦ = relay asking for stoppers in ♥ and ♠
3♥ = a stop in hearts, not in spades
4♠ = we investigate a diamond slam
4NT = Roman Key Card Blackwood for diamonds
5♦ = 0 or 3 keycards
5♥ = asking for ♦Q or extra length in diamonds (North promised 3+ diamonds by bidding 4♠)
6♣ = ♦Q or 4+ card diamonds and ♣K
6♦ = sign off

Jan

[sieong]

I would have bid the hand exactly the same way Adam did. There are no branches to be taken in the auction.

There was a time when I used to rebid 1NT with this type of hands (5431 with no 5 card majors and stiff honor). The results tended to be poor though, so now I usually just make the system bid.

[relknes]

straube, on 2013-January-12, 08:20, said:

South opens 1C. No interference. NV vs V. Please voice your opinion on interference in the "comparing systems" thread.

..........A84
..........A94
..........A954
..........K72
J973...............KT652
JT87...............632
2....................863
QJ53...............64
..........Q
..........KQ5
..........KQJT7
..........AT98

Using a fairly basic strong club with reverse-cuebids, I would bid:

1♣-1N
2♦-3♦
3♥-3♠
4♣-5♣
6♣-6♦
Pass

Translation:
S: 16+, N: 9+ balanced, GF
S: unbaanced, 5+ diamonds, N: diamond support, 4+ controls
S: Do you have 1st or second round control of hearts?, N: yes, do you have first or second round control of spades?
S: Yes, and two of the top 3 trump, do you have first or second round control of clubs?, N: Yes, and first round control of both majors and one of the top 3 trump, do you have first round control of clubs?
S: Yes, as well as second round control of both majors and the J of trump, do you have third round control of clubs?, N: no.
S: then 6♦ it is.

[dake50]

..........A84
..........A94
..........A954
..........K72

..........Q
..........KQ5
..........KQJT7
..........AT98
2D-4C- 5+diamonds, 13-17 - D-keys
4NT-6D. 2+Q - try

[antonylee]

Not going to open a Polish club with a 17-count and primary diamonds... North is going to show a GF raise of diamonds, south will keycard and that's about it. Hardly a precise auction.

[rbforster]

straube, on 2013-January-12, 08:20, said:

South opens 1C. No interference. NV vs V. Please voice your opinion on interference in the "comparing systems" thread.

..........A84
..........A94
..........A954
..........K72
J973...............KT652
JT87...............632
2....................863
QJ53...............64
..........Q
..........KQ5
..........KQJT7
..........AT98

Silent Club:

1♣-1♠ strong; balanced GF or clubs
1N-2♥ relay; balanced no major
2♠-2N relay; 4m333
3♣-4♥ relay; 3343 11 QPs (so off an A, or QC and a black king)
4♠-5♠ relay; 1-2 AKQ honors in each suit, only 1 in diamonds (so off AS, or QC and KS)
6♦-P

Sure 6N is cold if partner has all the secondary honors and we're just off the spade A, but I can't tell between that and the actual hand below 6♦ so I took the known slam. Partner might not ask for which minor after hearing 4m333 and just signoff in 3N with his min, in which case it'd proceed:

3N-4♥ signoff; 11 QPs (minor unknown this time)
4♠-5♠ relay; 1-2 AKQ honors in each suit, only 1 in spades (same two unknown hand types as above)
6♦-P

This time 6D is only on a known 5-3 fit, and if so and partner has the hand given but with 3334 (rather than missing the AS), now we'll need 3-2 trump and bring in the 4-4 club suit for only 1 loser.

[Zelandakh]

1♦ = max 17, 4+ diamonds, unbal
... - 1♥ = INV+ relay
2♣ = max, 4+ clubs, GF
... - 2♦ = relay
2♥ = 5+ diamonds, 4 clubs
... - 2♠ = relay
2NT = 5 diamonds
... - 3♣ = relay
3♦ = 1354
... - 3♥ = relay
3NT = 4 controls
... - 4NT = Q ask
5♣ = no ♣Q
... - 6♦