[straube]

You are South and 2nd seat. Unfavorable. IMPs. Uncontested auction


................J9852
................void
................J76
................AT962
K74............................63
Q982..........................AJT4
8532...........................KT9
K5...............................8743
................AQT
................K7653
................AQ4
................QJ


Outcomes


4S S SCREAM
4S N Relknes
4S S Meckwell Light
4S S Precision by Free
4S S OC Precision
4S N Moscito
4S S IMPrecision
4S S Polish Club
4S N Silent Club
4S N Zelandakh
4S S Jasmine Club
4S N dake50
4S S tosr

4S S New Big Club (1N opening)

[straube]

straube, on 2013-January-16, 13:57, said:

You are South and 2nd seat. Unfavorable. IMPs. Uncontested auction


................J9852
................void
................J76
................AT962
K74............................63
Q982..........................AJT4
8532...........................KT9
K5...............................8743
................AQT
................K7653
................AQ4
................QJ

SCREAM bids this as...

1C-1H, 16+, 2-4 QPs any shape (a good 4+ hcps)
1N-2H, 17-18 possibly unbalanced, transfer
2S-3C, declined to super-accept, invitational 5/5
4S

Atul offers...

1C-1H, 16+, 2-4 QPs any shape (a good 4+ hcps)
1N-2H, 17-18 possibly unbalanced, transfer
3S, 4S super-accepting

Our best auctions after 1C-1H are when opener can rebid 1S (GF relay) or 1N (when opener is balanced) or 2C (when opener is balanced with 19 or 20). Other auctions are often awkward and are why we're looking at other systems. On this deal, opener has the flexibility to reject the transfer with shortness (e.g. 1345) because responder has shown some values. He can also super-accept. Atul and I judge differently on this one. I like the three spades and maximum and dislike the QJ of clubs. I also expect responder to take another call with a 6 count most of the time so I just accept the transfer. Fortunately, responder has an invitational hand and we get to game. Atul's auction makes for an easy acceptance by responder.

We use a different NT structure for both passed hands and semipositives and have no way to force with clubs. I don't think this is much of a loss.

[relknes]

straube, on 2013-January-16, 13:57, said:

You are South and 2nd seat. Unfavorable. IMPs. Uncontested auction


................J9852
................void
................J76
................AT962
K74............................63
Q982..........................AJT4
8532...........................KT9
T5...............................8743
................AQT
................K7653
................AQ4
................QJ

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 1♠
1N - 2♣
2♠ - 4♠

Then west calls a misdeal when he sees that he and north both have the 10 of clubs, and there is no K of clubs anywhere...

But anyways...
Translation:
S: 16+, N: 0-8
S: 16-21 points, 4+ hearts, N: 5-8 points, 4+ spades
S: 16-18 balanced, N: 5+ spades and 4+ clubs
S: simple preference, N: to play

[JLOGIC]

1C 1D (16+ 0-7)
1N 2H (17-18, transfer)
2S 2N (completing transfer, clubs)
4S

Some debatable decisions, south could rebid 1H (I usually rebid a 5 card major, but the hand seems NTy with a bad suit. FWIW there is a split here, Greco-Hampson always rebid 1N with 5332, but I think Rodwell said usually bidding 1M is better, so that's what I and my partners do).

North could also just bid 2C then 2S for an invite with spades but I think the hand is worth showing the clubs vul at imps and increasing the chance of getting to the right game. Spades, clubs, or diamonds could all easily be right.

It doesn't matter on this hand as south would accept the game try in spades.

[straube]

Thx. Corrected it.

[straube]

JLOGIC, on 2013-January-16, 14:15, said:

1C 1D (16+ 0-7)
1N 2H (17-18, transfer)
2S 2N (completing transfer, clubs)
4S

Some debatable decisions, south could rebid 1H (I usually rebid a 5 card major, but the hand seems NTy with a bad suit. FWIW there is a split here, Greco-Hampson always rebid 1N with 5332, but I think Rodwell said usually bidding 1M is better, so that's what I and my partners do).

North could also just bid 2C then 2S for an invite with spades but I think the hand is worth showing the clubs vul at imps and increasing the chance of getting to the right game. Spades, clubs, or diamonds could all easily be right.

It doesn't matter on this hand as south would accept the game try in spades.

I'd be curious to see a 1C-1H, 1S continuation. My understanding is that 1S handles most hands with 0-7 hcps, 4+ spades and fewer than four hearts (I think the except with 4S/3H).

[JLOGIC]

1C 1D
1H 1S
1N 3C
3S 4S

[Free]

This one requires some evaluation and it's always hard not to result. The obvious start for us is 1♣-1♦-1NT. Now North should determine if he has a GF hand or an invite. It's borderline imo. After a GF, it's obvious to get to 4♠, but after an invite I'm not sure South should accept.

Basically it could go several ways. I always count my losers in borderline cases where all other evaluation tools fail to make a clear decision. North has 8 of them and should expect 6 or less in the South hand, which is enough to GF.

1♣-1♦ (16+ any ; 0-7 any or GF any 4441)
1NT-2♥ (17-18 balanced ; transfer, 5+♠, weak or GF)
2♠-2NT (normal accept ; GF, 4+♣)
3♥-4♠ (fit ♠, bad hand for slam ; signoff)

In case you're interested, when North would invite:
1♣-1♦ (16+ any ; 0-7 any or GF any 4441)
1NT-2♣ (17-18 balanced ; starts as Stayman)
2♥-2♠ (4-5♥ ; INV with 5♠)
pass/3♠/4♠? (how do you value ♣QJ? ; if opener bids 3♠ North should bid game imo)
Note: when opener would reject the invite by bidding 2NT, responder can bid 3♣ showing 5-5. So that's also not an argument to GF

[JLOGIC]

Free, on 2013-January-16, 14:52, said:

Note: when opener would reject the invite by bidding 2NT, responder can bid 3♣ showing 5-5. So that's also not an argument to GF

I don't think 2N should be rejecting, when you are rejecting an invite you should pass. You'd much rather play 2S in a 5-2 fit than correct to 2N and play 2N. To me, that is the main advantage in having 2C then 2S be an invite, being able to play 2S is a big winner.

Personally I play that 2N is a max with 2 trumps since I would always pass with a min. A lot of the time partner has the shapely invite he is not looking to play 3N, so bidding 2N with a max is useful when partner is 5-5 and you can still play 3 of the minor (and if he's not and has a 3N bid over 2N, nothing lost).

I also don't get why you would consider rejecting a spade invite with the south hand. You have the top of your range and AQT of spades which must be good. Sure, the QJ of clubs might not be great but you also have a ruffing value, a 5 card suit, etc. I think it is overthinking it to reject an invite in spades with a 3532 18 count when you have shown 17-18 bal.

[akhare]

straube, on 2013-January-16, 14:11, said:

Atul offers...

1C-1H, 16+, 2-4 QPs any shape (a good 4+ hcps)
1N-2H, 17-18 possibly unbalanced, transfer
3S, 4S super-accepting

Our best auctions after 1C-1H are when opener can rebid 1S (GF relay) or 1N (when opener is balanced) or 2C (when opener is balanced with 19 or 20). Other auctions are often awkward and are why we're looking at other systems. On this deal, opener has the flexibility to reject the transfer with shortness (e.g. 1345) because responder has shown some values. He can also super-accept. Atul and I judge differently on this one. I like the three spades and maximum and dislike the QJ of clubs. I also expect responder to take another call with a 6 count most of the time so I just accept the transfer. Fortunately, responder has an invitational hand and we get to game. Atul's auction makes for an easy acceptance by responder.

Another reason to super-accept might be that opener might been end played into bidding 1N with say a stiff ♠. Also, responder's ability to make another call with a 6-count might not be as clear cut, especially with hands that aren't as shapely as the one in question.

[straube]

JLOGIC, on 2013-January-16, 15:00, said:

I don't think 2N should be rejecting, when you are rejecting an invite you should pass. You'd much rather play 2S in a 5-2 fit than correct to 2N and play 2N. To me, that is the main advantage in having 2C then 2S be an invite, being able to play 2S is a big winner.

Personally I play that 2N is a max with 2 trumps since I would always pass with a min. A lot of the time partner has the shapely invite he is not looking to play 3N, so bidding 2N with a max is useful when partner is 5-5 and you can still play 3 of the minor (and if he's not and has a 3N bid over 2N, nothing lost).

We do that, too. Learned it from Meckwell but not sure if they invented it. 2N is a courtesy bid to encourage shapely invites with 5/5s. Like them, we also play 1N-2D, 2H-2S is a GI in hearts so responder can get out in 3m if opener has a 2-fit minimum and rebids 2N.

[straube]

akhare, on 2013-January-16, 15:08, said:

Another reason to super-accept might be that opener might been end played into bidding 1N with say a stiff ♠. Also, responder's ability to make another call with a 6-count might not be as clear cut, especially with hands that aren't as shapely as the one in question.

Not accepting a transfer with a stiff if I know responder has some values. 2N should have some play. Thought we were agreed on that, but we can discuss it offline.

[FM75]

straube, on 2013-January-16, 13:57, said:

You are South and 2nd seat. Unfavorable. IMPs. Uncontested auction


................J9852
................void
................J76
................AT962


................AQT
................K7653
................AQ4
................QJ

1♣ - 1N should be 8+ and 5+ ♠ - judgment upgrade
2♣ - 2♦ 0-2
2♠ - 2N trump asking, no top honors 5+ length.
3♥ - 4♥ control ask in hearts, first round - void or Axx(x)
4♠

[straube]

FM75, on 2013-January-16, 15:15, said:

1♣ - 1N should be 8+ and 5+ ♠ - judgment upgrade
2♣ - 2♦ 0-2
2♠ - 2N trump asking, no top honors 5+ length.
3♥ - 4♥ control ask in hearts, first round - void or Axx(x)
4♠

0-2 controls I assume. I think it would be better if you started with 1D 0-7 like others are doing. Whenever possible, I think we should try to take judgment out of the equation because this is about system comparison. How do you and others feel about that?

Btw, the knr on opener's hand is 16.75 and the DK is 18-

[hrothgar]

Here's the MOSCITO auction

1♣ - 2♣ 2♣ shows a semi positive with 5+ Spades and either (4+ Hearts or 4+ Clubs)
2♦ - 2♠ 2♦ is a relay and 2♠ shows the Black suits
3♠ - 4♠

If responder showed the majors, opener would GF. However, once responder shows the Black suits, I think that opener is only work a game invite.

Responder has a fairly minimal 2♣, however, I think the hand is worth accepting a game invite.

1. Opener has more than a dead minimum (He chose to relay rather than bidding 2♠)
2. Responder has an Ace, 5-5 shape, and a void.

[lalldonn]

JLOGIC, on 2013-January-16, 14:15, said:

Some debatable decisions, south could rebid 1H (I usually rebid a 5 card major, but the hand seems NTy with a bad suit. FWIW there is a split here, Greco-Hampson always rebid 1N with 5332, but I think Rodwell said usually bidding 1M is better, so that's what I and my partners do).

Over 1♠ if you rebid a minor is it ambiguous which is longer? I'm curious since I only learned the other way where you rebid 1NT with four hearts, a minor with five hearts, and you can't rebid 1♥ because of that with 5332.

[straube]

hrothgar, on 2013-January-16, 16:40, said:

Here's the MOSCITO auction

1♣ - 2♣ 2♣ shows a semi positive with 5+ Spades and either (4+ Hearts or 4+ Clubs)
2♦ - 2♠ 2♦ is a relay and 2♠ shows the Black suits
3♠ - 4♠

If responder showed the majors, opener would GF. However, once responder shows the Black suits, I think that opener is only work a game invite.

Responder has a fairly minimal 2♣, however, I think the hand is worth accepting a game invite.

1. Opener has more than a dead minimum (He chose to relay rather than bidding 2♠)
2. Responder has an Ace, 5-5 shape, and a void.

Moscito had a difficult decision on a prior thread when the bidding started 1C-2C because the bid is a bit preemptive to our side as well as the opponents. I'm wondering if it can afford a 2N rebid as invitational and a 2D rebid as invitational+. For example, what would opener's plan be for A KQxx AKxxx xxx vs AQ Kxxx AQxx QJ? I would want to rebid 2N on the first hand to avoid getting too high opposite a potential misfit. On the second hand I would want to relay once and then rebid 3S to show an invitational hand with a doubleton. With the hand in question I think 1C-2C, 3S to guarantee a fit and an invitational hand, missing out on hearts occasionally unless responder can mention them on the way to game in spades. If I were responder and heard 1C-2C, 2D-2S, 3S I would pass fearing we were on a 5-2 fit. Maybe you can explain more about the continuations and relay breaks here.

[JLOGIC]

lalldonn, on 2013-January-16, 16:44, said:

Over 1♠ if you rebid a minor is it ambiguous which is longer? I'm curious since I only learned the other way where you rebid 1NT with four hearts, a minor with five hearts, and you can't rebid 1♥ because of that with 5332.

Yes I play it as ambiguous. Rebidding 1H causes some problems, like the one you mentioned, and also over 1N you pass which Hampson says is bad since partner might have like a 7 card minor or w/e. To me it is analagous to playing semi forcing NT instead of forcing NT though, but there is more risk in this auction probably.

Also, the auction I mentioned 1C 1D 1H 1S 3C is more dangerous since responder has 4-5 spades. This is not a problem if your 1N rebid is 35(32) but it is a problem for me since I can have that shape. Arguably I should just raise with 35(32) so that the 1N rebid denies 3 spades.

And of course, you might wrongside NT.

All that said, you gain a lot rebidding 1M with 5M332 imo, since it is likely a partscore deal after 1C p 1D you really don't want to miss a 5-4 major suit fit, and it is possible you miss a game when responder has a 3M bid over 1M but a pass over 1N (like 4 trumps and a stiff).

I think either way is fine and that is why there is a split among the good MW light pairs, I have been happier since I have switched to typically bidding 1M though. I still bid 1N on hands like this though (soft/NTy, and bad suits), but I probably bid 1M like 85 % of the time. FWIW even my partners are split, I think Kevin likes bidding 1N and does that a majority of the time, and I have never seen Joe bid 1N.

[awm]

IMprecision:

1♣ - 1♥ (strong, 4+spade with 5+ hcp 2-6RP)
1♠ - 2♣ (3+♠ or 5+♥ or GF, 4+♣ unbal)
2♠ - 4♠ (3♠ and min, worth game w/fit)
Pass

[antonylee]

Polish club:
1♣-1♦ (Polish; 0-8 (no 4cM if 7-8) or 9-11 with a bad minor or both minors or 12-16 balanced, intending to be dummy in 3NT opposite a WNT)
1N-2♥ (18-20; transfer 0-6)
2♠-3♣ (natural invite)
4♠

or if North is deemed worth of a positive (my hand evaluation sucks ):
1♣-1♠ (7+)
2♦-3♥ (18+ 3+♠ not highly unbalanced; exactly 5 spades, 7-10 unbalanced)
3N-4♣ (side suit?; clubs) (not sure whether it's really worth asking but a priori parter could still have K9xxx Ax KTxxx x for a decent slam)
4♠