[straube]

You are South and 2nd seat. NV vs V. Imps. Uncontested auction.


...................T92
...................Q93
...................3
...................QJ8763
K5.........................................J43
JT2........................................874
KQ2.......................................987654
AKT54...................................2
...................AQ876
...................AK65
...................AJT
...................9


Outcomes

2S S SCREAM
4S S IMPrecision
4S S Meckwell Light
4S S relknes
4S S Silent Club
4S S OCP
4S S Precision by Free
4S S Polish Club
4S N Zelandakh
4S S Unassuming Club
4S S New Big Club.......2N?
4S S mycroft
4S S tosr

[straube]

straube, on 2013-January-19, 11:08, said:

You are South and 2nd seat. V vs NV. Imps. Uncontested auction.


...................T92
...................Q93
...................3
...................QJ8763
?.........................................?
?.........................................?
?.........................................?
?.........................................?
...................AQ876
...................AK65
...................AJT
...................9

SCREAM bids this...

1C-1H, 16+, 2-4 QPs and 4+ hcps
2C-2S, stayman, no major and less than GF
P

After 1H, if opener wants to GF he rebids 1S to relay the hand. Opener's rebid of 2C asks for a major (doesn't show one) and opener can have 19-20 balanced or 4M/6m or 4M/6M or 5S/4H. It passed through my mind that North could pass 2C here but that is really taking a position and is not systemic. Atul bid North's hand this way without seeing South's hand.

[awm]

IMPrecision:

1♣ - 2♣ (strong, 5+♣ unbalanced no major with 2-6RP and 5+ hcp)
2♠ - 4♠ (5+♠ but not a great 6+ suit with min strong club values and NF, a decent single raise is enough for game)

In general if strong club opener has a 5+ major and responder has a 3+ fit with semi-positive-plus values we bid game. There are a lot of ways to explain this (standard bidders often blast game with these hands, LTC supports it, etc) but it seems to work out more often than not. We can in principle make exceptions for really embarrassing hands (i.e. give north one more diamond and one less heart) but it's rare (and note even that hand is an okay IMPs game).

[akhare]

straube, on 2013-January-19, 11:13, said:

SCREAM bids this...

1C-1H, 16+, 2-4 QPs and 4+ hcps
2C-2S, stayman, no major
P

After 1H, if opener wants to GF he rebids 1S to relay the hand. Opener's rebid of 2C asks for a major (doesn't show one) and opener can have 19-20 balanced or 4M/6m or 5M/6M or 5S/4H. It passed through my mind that North could pass 2C here but that is really taking a position and is not systemic. Atul agreed with this auction without seeing the South hand.

Finding right part score after 1♣ - 1♥ (any SP) can be a crap shoot. In this case, the 2♠ is a very playable contract, but it's easy to swap the holdings around to construct far less than optimal outcomes.

The 1♣ - 1♦ (0-7) and IMP are likely to have a much more convincing auction.

[straube]

awm, on 2013-January-19, 11:23, said:

IMPrecision:

1♣ - 2♣ (strong, 5+♣ unbalanced no major with 2-6RP and 5+ hcp)
2♠ - 4♠ (5+♠ but not a great 6+ suit with min strong club values and NF, a decent single raise is enough for game)

In general if strong club opener has a 5+ major and responder has a 3+ fit with semi-positive-plus values we bid game. There are a lot of ways to explain this (standard bidders often blast game with these hands, LTC supports it, etc) but it seems to work out more often than not. We can in principle make exceptions for really embarrassing hands (i.e. give north one more diamond and one less heart) but it's rare (and note even that hand is an okay IMPs game).

That's a nice auction. Hands of this sort are an embarrassment to us. South never knows of 3-cd support before passing. The question I have is just how often we have these embarrassments and how often we get a poor result.

[JLOGIC]

My auction would start:

1C 1D
1S

Over which north can bid 2D (3 card support 6-7), or 1N. It does have a stiff and the T9 of spades, but it also has no ace or king. In order to be objective I will do a poll.

edit: Texted Joe, Kevin, and Josh. Will go with the majority decision. If it goes 1N, south will bid 2H and pass norths 2S bid. If it goes 2D south will drive to game (I would bid 2H to check for the heart fit personally, then over 2S bid 4S).

[relknes]

straube, on 2013-January-19, 11:08, said:

You are South and 2nd seat. V vs NV. Imps. Uncontested auction.


...................T92
...................Q93
...................3
...................QJ8763
?.........................................?
?.........................................?
?.........................................?
?.........................................?
...................AQ876
...................AK65
...................AJT
...................9

1♣ - 1♦
1♠ - 3♦
4♣ - 4♠
4N - 5♠
P

Translation:
S: 16+, N: 0-8
S: 4+ spades, 16-~21, N: 3+ spade support, singleton diamond, invitational+
S: 5+ spades, 16+ working points, 5+ controls, heart control, 2 of top 3 trump, "Do you have first or second round control of clubs?" N: "No first or second round control of clubs"
S: "Do you have the last of the top 3 trump?", N: "No"
S: lets play 5 spades

Note, 1♠ will only have 4 if it has a 4441 shape with a singleton heart

[JLOGIC]

Josh and Kevin both bid 2D (Joe still sleeping I assume). Josh said "I want to bid 2D I think" and Kevin said "I don't think it's close." FWIW I agree with Kevin, can't be missing vul games at imps, but I thought I might be biased. A lot of these for me will come down to judgement rather than system.

So

1C 1D
1S 2D
2H 2S
4S

(2D=6-7 with 3 spades).

I think south should check back for a heart fit but some might just bid 4S over 2D to conceal their hand.

[straube]

relknes, on 2013-January-19, 11:45, said:

1♣ - 1♦
1♠ - 3♦
4♣ - 4♠
4N - 5♠
P

Translation:
S: 16+, N: 0-8
S: 4+ spades, 16-~21, N: 3+ spade support, singleton diamond, invitational+
S: 5+ spades, 16+ working points, 5+ controls, heart control, 2 of top 3 trump, "Do you have first or second round control of clubs?" N: "No first or second round control of clubs"
S: "Do you have the last of the top 3 trump?", N: "No"
S: lets play 5 spades

Note, 1♠ will only have 4 if it has a 4441 shape with a singleton heart

Awfully high. The 3D bid seems an overbid to me. Contrast this with Justin debating between a 1N and 2D rebid. Any second thoughts about this auction?

[rbforster]

Silent Club:

1♣-1♦ strong; most 0-7, some GFs
1♠-1N artificial two suited min 5+/4+; asking for longer suit
2♠-3♠ usually exactly 5; invite
4♠-P

The only part with some judgement here is the 3♠ invite (vs pass), but with a fit and useful shortness in support of spades it seems ok. Opener is at the top of his 16-19ish range so accepting is easy.

It's possible to show responders hand as a one-suited invitation and preserve relay possibilities (initially respond 1♠), but the combination of minimum strength for a 5-7 range and poor suit honors makes an initial negative response better I think, especially in a minor (KQxxxx would be fine).

[relknes]

relknes, on 2013-January-19, 11:45, said:

1♣ - 1♦
1♠ - 3♦
4♣ - 4♠
4N - 5♠
P

Translation:
S: 16+, N: 0-8
S: 4+ spades, 16-~21, N: 3+ spade support, singleton diamond, invitational+
S: 5+ spades, 16+ working points, 5+ controls, heart control, 2 of top 3 trump, "Do you have first or second round control of clubs?" N: "No first or second round control of clubs"
S: "Do you have the last of the top 3 trump?", N: "No"
S: lets play 5 spades

Note, 1♠ will only have 4 if it has a 4441 shape with a singleton heart

Sorry all for posting again, but I realized N had a much better action. I must be tired this morning...

1♣ - 1♦
1♠ - 2♣
2♥ - 2♠
2N - 4♠

Translation:
S: 16+, N: 0-8
S: 4+ spades, 16-~21, N: 6-8 points, 4+
S: 4+ hearts, 5+ spades, N: spade preference
S: 18+ points, exactly 5-4 majors, diamonds stopped, 5+ controls, N: real spade support, 0-3 controls

note: I upgraded North's hand to invitational because if south only has 4 spades, there is a 10 card club fit, so I can coult the singleton for points

Also, in regards to the previous auction, I can't picture a laydown slam oposite a perfect minimum (the minimum for a splinter there is a good 4 HCP with the singleton) so south should have bid 4♠ over the splinter... like I said, I must be tired.

[FM75]

OCP

1♣ - 1♦
1♠ - 2♠
2N - 3♣ agrees to SSGT
3♥ - 4♠ club shortage

[Free]

I don't think North has a big decision after 1♣-1♦-1♠, I'd bid 2♦ anytime (although for us it shows 5-7 with 3♠). I guess I like singleton ♦ more than Justin.

1♣-1♦ (16+ ; 0-7)
1♠-2♦ (4+♠ F1 ; 5-7 3♠)
2♥-3♠ (natural ; no 4♥ but good fitting hand)
4♠-pass

[antonylee]

Polish club:
1♣-1♦ (Polish; negative or various others)
1♠-2♣ (better major in a WNT or 4♠-5+♣ 15-17 or 5+♠ 18-20; 5+♣ unbal 5-11 (not 6 good if 9-11))
2♥-4♠ (5+♠-4+♥ 18-20; everybody seems to like responder's hand so I won't even invite opposite 18-20)

Note that 1♠ could easily come from a 3234 12-count so a direct raise is necessarily four cards :-)

[Siegmund]

Unassuming club:

1C-3C (6 clubs, 3-6)
3S-4S (19+ natural)

Antonylee chose 1C-1D-1S in Polish; I think this is awfully heavy for the 1S rebid, and can see it going 1C-1D-2S, then a raise, but all roads leading to 4S.

[Edited to add the morning after: at 3AM I saw 20 points not 18 in South. Antonylee's auction makes more sense now. Opening 1S also within the realm of possibility, in systems where it is 11-18 and big 1C hands start at 19.]

[Hilver]

Hilversumse Klaveren (HK)

1♣ - 1♠
1NT - 2NT
3♠ - 4♠

Explanation:
1♠ = transfer to ♣, 0-7 HCP, 6+-card [clubs; not a 7+-card clubs with 5-7 HCP and honnours in clubs.
1NT = 16-19 HCP, not good clubs
2NT = 5-7 HCP, 6-card clubs, not 4-card in another suit
3♠ = at least 5-card spades, non forcing

Nevertheless, North will bid 4♠. North knows South has an unbalanced hand and not a 2-card clubs. North has ruffing values in diamonds and a useful Queen of hearts.

Jan

[hrothgar]

Before I give a MOSCITO auction, does everyone agree that West will pass over a strong club opening?

[straube]

Hilver, on 2013-January-20, 04:35, said:

Hilversumse Klaveren (HK)

1♣ - 1♠
1NT - 2NT
3♠ - 4♠

Explanation:
1♠ = transfer to ♣, 0-7 HCP, 6+-card [clubs; not a 7+-card clubs with 5-7 HCP and honnours in clubs.
1NT = 16-19 HCP, not good clubs
2NT = 5-7 HCP, 6-card clubs, not 4-card in another suit
3♠ = at least 5-card spades, non forcing

Nevertheless, North will bid 4♠. North knows South has an unbalanced hand and not a 2-card clubs. North has ruffing values in diamonds and a useful Queen of hearts.

Jan

After 1C-1S, 1N-2N, I think South has to think about downgrading his hand. Basically, responder is inviting game if South has help to run his club suit and South doesn't have that help. I think South should consider passing 2N. At most he might accept the transfer (I gather North can't have 7 clubs) hoping that responder can bid again to show a major suit fragment and a max...but this is kind of getting out there.

I don't think a 3S rebid by South makes sense. It endplays the partnership into 3N whenever North has spade shortness...and then you could be in a 3N with 23 points and a misfit. Not that you do, but I think most would play 3S by South to be forcing to 3N or 4S.

How do you or others feel about this? Are you comfortable with a 2N result or do you want your auction to stand?

I could use company not getting to game here

[straube]

hrothgar, on 2013-January-20, 10:24, said:

Before I give a MOSCITO auction, does everyone agree that West will pass over a strong club opening?

I doubt everyone will. I did give a similar hand for West in the "comparing system" thread. I received only one response (from RobF) who suggested pass. Pass was what I'd been thinking. It's a defensive hand imo.

Also not really sure it matters. If West had bid, I would simply toss the hand as unsuitable. We're not looking at LHO interference but only RHO interference.

[Free]

hrothgar, on 2013-January-20, 10:24, said:

Before I give a MOSCITO auction, does everyone agree that West will pass over a strong club opening?

I like the hand more than the one posted in the other thread, but V vs NV I don't like to make a 2-level overcall on a strong hand with only a 5 card suit (and something else showing a strong hand is even worse imo). So I believe most people will indeed pass.