[nige1]

 straube, on 2013-January-27, 23:08, said:

If your system calls for a jump transfer, then you should benefit when you have a suit that meets your requirement. On bd 16 I was concerned that you hadn't guaranteed a 7th club (which was pretty much the 13th trick). So if you were entitled to jump to 2S on bd 16 with only a 6-cd suit, then it seems like you are entitled to do so on this deal. You get to win sometimes

So I'll put you down for 7H if that's ok with you.

Thank you, Straube, but your first decision was quite reasonable, too I'm grateful for feedback, especially when, as here, it indicates how the system can be improved. I trust your judgement and I'm happy to accept future assessments without quibble.

[straube]

 nige1, on 2013-January-27, 23:15, said:

Thank you but your first decision was quite reasonable, too

Thanks. Well I really don't want to be deciding things or seen as deciding things. I want the outcomes to make sense or this whole effort is pointless. So if I question something feel free to argue or explain and hopefully we'll have some of our experts weigh in as needed.

[Zelandakh]

I think the best auction for Z Club is:

1♦ = (9)10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal
... - 1♥ = INV+ relay
2♣ = max, 4+ clubs, GF
... - 2♦ = relay
2♠ = 5+ diamonds, 5+ clubs
... - 2NT = relay
3♦ = 2155
... - 3♥ = relay
4♦ = 6 controls
... - 4NT = Q ask
5♣ = no ♣Q
... - 5NT = J ask
6♣ = no ♣J
... - 6♥ = ♥J?
7♣ = yes, and ♠J
... - 7♥

If South did not have both major suit jacks then I would settle for 6NT. As it is, I think North has found out enough for 7♥(N).

[Hilver]

Hilversumse Klaveren (HK)

1♣ - 1♦
1NT - 2♦
4♣ - 4♥
4NT - 5♦
5♠ - 6♣
7♥

Explanation:
1♣ = 16+, not a balanced 16-20
1♦ = relay, denying several one or two suited hands with 0-7 HCP
1NT = 5+ card ♦, not GF
2♦ = relay, at least 6/7+ HCP
4♣ = strong 5+ card ♦ and 5+ card ♣; diamonds longer or better then ♣, not a 3-card in the majors
4♥ = long and strong hearts, playable when pard has at least a singleton, outside strength
4NT = RKC
5♦ = 0 or 3 keycards
5♠ = asking for the queen of hearts and kings
6♣ = Queen of hearts and one king (not counting the king of hearts)
7♥. If North holds 7+-card hearts then South can count 13 tricks.

Jan

[Zelandakh]

 Hilver, on 2013-January-28, 07:08, said:

Hilversumse Klaveren (HK)

What strength does the 4♥ bid show Jan? and is it forcing? and what is the minimum suit quality? Does North have a weaker way to show a one-suiter with hearts here?

Later, South knows North has 6 good hearts and ♠AK. What is your reasoning that this is enough for grand? Most of the posters who only know of a 6 card suit are only bidding 6. Are you basically relying on the diamond finesse or the clubs ruffing out? Anyone want to calculate the odds...

[Hilver]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-January-28, 08:11, said:

What strength does the 4♥ bid show Jan? and is it forcing? and what is the minimum suit quality? Does North have a weaker way to show a one-suiter with hearts here?

Later, South knows North has 6 good hearts and ♠AK. What is your reasoning that this is enough for grand? Most of the posters who only know of a 6 card suit are only bidding 6. Are you basically relying on the diamond finesse or the clubs ruffing out? Anyone want to calculate the odds...

In HK:
1♣ - 2♣ = 6+ card ♥ 0-7 HCP

1♣ - 3♦ = 7+ card ♥ with 5-7 HCP, most of the points in ♥

1♣ - 4♣ = 7+-card ♥ with at least AKQ, no outside strength

For bidding in this way, North should hold at least 6 good hearts and outside strength. For he is willing to play in hearts opposite a singleton heart.
South knows North has at least 6 hearts with A, K and Q and AK in spades. If North holds a 3-card spades, then he possibly can ruff the third spade in South. North has at utmost 5 cards in the minors, there is a chance of establishing one of South's minors. And of course there is always the chance of a diamond finesse.
HK is not a symmetric relay system, so South will not be quite sure about 13 tricks. But there are a lot of chances.

Jan

[straube]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-January-28, 05:45, said:

I think the best auction for Z Club is:

1♦ = (9)10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal
... - 1♥ = INV+ relay
2♣ = max, 4+ clubs, GF
... - 2♦ = relay
2♠ = 5+ diamonds, 5+ clubs
... - 2NT = relay
3♦ = 2155
... - 3♥ = relay
4♦ = 6 controls
... - 4NT = Q ask
5♣ = no ♣Q
... - 5NT = J ask
6♣ = no ♣J
... - 6♥ = ♥J?
7♣ = yes, and ♠J
... - 7♥

If South did not have both major suit jacks then I would settle for 6NT. As it is, I think North has found out enough for 7♥(N).

Curious how you sign off. We usually just S1 until we've had enough and then place the contract, but it looks like you have a lot of relay breaks that are asking bids. 4N for us would be to play and so on. Maybe you do the opposite at some point and your S1 functions as a terminator puppet and your relay breaks are various asking bids?

[Zelandakh]

First step is a relay (except 4M on certain freak hands). Relay breaks of 4NT and 5NT are different types of Q ask once the relays have reached a certain point. A 4NT queen ask followed by 5NT is a jack ask. The other relay breaks are generally sign offs if this makes sense, although there are certain exceptions (such as 4♥ over 3♠ or 3NT) due to the way my version of the 4 way KCB convention works. The NT asks are necessary because I am using (Blue Team) control points rather than queen points. In general, your system will have an advantage over mine on hands where the queens are important but the NT relay breaks do at least narrow the gap somewhat.

[straube]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-January-28, 09:53, said:

First step is a relay (except 4M on certain freak hands). Relay breaks of 4NT and 5NT are different types of Q ask once the relays have reached a certain point. A 4NT queen ask followed by 5NT is a jack ask. The other relay breaks are generally sign offs if this makes sense, although there are certain exceptions (such as 4♥ over 3♠ or 3NT) due to the way my version of the 4 way KCB convention works. The NT asks are necessary because I am using (Blue Team) control points rather than queen points. In general, your system will have an advantage over mine on hands where the queens are important but the NT relay breaks do at least narrow the gap somewhat.

Thanks. How do you sign off after a jack request? For example, the 6H bid asks for the HJ but how would you sign off in 6H? Is 6D here a puppet? Or does it ask for the diamond jack? Maybe a jack ask commits you to at least 6N.

[Zelandakh]

 straube, on 2013-January-28, 12:55, said:

Thanks. How do you sign off after a jack request? For example, the 6H bid asks for the HJ but how would you sign off in 6H?

I can't. The jack ask is effectively forcing to 6NT unless the suit we are interested in is the lowest where partner does not have it. More than this, 6♥ over 5♣ (the first bid after 4NT) would be a non-forcing ask for the ♥Q. This is the system equivalent of a trump queen ask. The NT relay breaks are therefore quite specific bids and you have to know what you want before making them.

Notice that you could very easily incorporate exactly the same jack asking convention for your 5NT relay break if you thought it had merit. For example, the last relay response in your auction is 4NT; would you ever make a natural 5NT bid here? If not then you might as well use the bid for something else. I suppose you could have a hand with a club fit that makes 11 tricks in clubs or NT (assuming 5♣ is a relay). Neither is exactly a common problem. Having an alternative route (RKCB) can help with the 11 trick hands sometimes.

[qplus10]

1♣1♥(5+♥gf)
2♣(alpha) 3♥ (7th step 13+hcp 5or 6 controls less than hxx in ♣)
3nt 6nt

[jack502]

1♣1♦
2nt 3♣
3♠4♠
4nt 5♣
5♦7nt



1♦gf
2nt 5+5+minors
3♠ 2155
4♠ rkcb for diamonds
5♣ q trumps ask
5♦ no q trumps.

[FM75]

OCP.
BTW - The author of the system, given this problem, came up with the same sequence I suggested,
but bid 7♥.

Obviously, as I mentioned, 6H is cold on anything but trump lead.


He says,
"On a non-Heart Lead, 7 is icy, but on a trump lead you need something nice happening on whichever Minor you decide to go for (best to go for Diamonds, obviously), but only 5-1 Diamonds with East having the long Diamonds is enough to beat 7 . If North shows up with 1st 2nd and 3rd of Spades, South has to forgo the Epsilon in Clubs and just punt 7 in the hope that North doesn't have the stiff AK of Spades, or that whichever minor North is shortest in can be established."

[Mbodell]

At the table 4♥N thanks to an accident, by system 6NT N.

table:
1♣-1nt : 16+ unbal, 18+ bal; 8+ hcp, 2+ ctls, 4+ ♥
2♣-3♣ : relay; some 6322
3♦-3nt : relay; 3=6=2=2
4♣-4♥ : relay (though asking controls, actually 1430 for hearts); 3 (or 0) KC

system:
1♣-1nt : 16+ unbal, 18+ bal; 8+ hcp, 2+ ctls, 4+ ♥
2♣-3♣ : relay; some 6322
3♦-3nt : relay; 3=6=2=2
4♦-5♦ : ->4♥ for some signoff; refusing showing 6 controls
6nt : can't find out about key Qs, but 6nt should have good play

It rarely comes up but if our pattern takes us so the control ask would be on the 4 level, we switched to only do key cards, which I forgot at the table.

[Zelandakh]

 jack502, on 2013-January-29, 12:09, said:

1♣1♦
2nt 3♣
3♠4♠
4nt 5♣
5♦7nt

This has to go down as one of the strangest auctions in the series. North asks for the trump queen and when it is not there jumps to 7NT! If it had been done by a human, we would probably be questioning it!

 FM75, on 2013-January-29, 17:54, said:

OCP.
BTW - The author of the system, given this problem, came up with the same sequence I suggested,
but bid 7♥.

It is hard to follow your auction but as I understand it South is in control and North has shown ♠AK and ♥AKQxxx, plus no more than 3 diamond cards and no more than 2 club cards. Is 7 "icy on a non-heart lead" opposite AK/AKQxxx/xxx/xx?. To be honest, the comments of the system author give the general impression of being based on double dummy thinking. Perhaps he misunderstood the exercise.

 Mbodell, on 2013-January-30, 00:01, said:

1♣-1nt : 16+ unbal, 18+ bal; 8+ hcp, 2+ ctls, 4+ ♥
2♣-3♣ : relay; some 6322
3♦-3nt : relay; 3=6=2=2

I am interested in your 3NT bid here. Is it forcing? It seems to me that you could incorporate zooming here to avoid an unpleasant accident one day. It would also mean that you got to use the relay-based auction you wanted rather than switching to RKCB.

Edit: thinking about it, TOSR uses zooming by default iirc. Why did you take it out?

[jack502]

[quote name='Zelandakh' timestamp='1359534642' post='701955']
This has to go down as one of the strangest auctions in the series. North asks for the trump queen and when it is not there jumps to 7NT! If it had been done by a human, we would probably be questioning it!

I guess if it hasn't got the q of trumps it has more values elsewhere. It may be that it always asks for the q but I don't think so. If we ever find a major bug or a hand we can't understand or something that needs fixing I can email the authors of jack they normally reply.

[Siegmund]

This is a terrible hand for Unassuming:

1D 1H
3C 3S
4C 6NT(?)

The notes say 3C shows 15-18 and 5-5 minors, and denies 3 hearts, but is passable(!) because opener is limited to 18 and responder might have bid 1H on a misfitting 5, and they further say that 3H by responder in nonforcing, with 3OM as a generic force. Opener can't bid 3NT and can't show 2-card heart support, so what else can he do but 4C?

At this point we have no more science, and responder just blasts something. My partners always seem to blast 6NT even though 6 of either partner's suit makes quite a bit more often.

It is also a bad hand for Malfoir, which doesn't have a dedicated sequence to show a strong hand with both minors; opener is going to have to pick a minor to show first and hope he can catch up. Fortunately responder is insistent:

1C 1H (1H=8+, 4+ hearts, very often longer since many 4-card heart suits are suppressed)
2D 2H (natural 16-20ish, natural and forcing)
3C

After this I am again a bit lost. Does responder rebid 3H as if he had 7 (after which he'll sail into 6H) or drive to 6D expecting an 8-card fit or blast to 6NT or what? So much bidding space left after 3C, and I have no clue how to use it, since it's sort of a dark corner of the system.

[Mbodell]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-January-30, 02:30, said:

Quote

1♣-1nt : 16+ unbal, 18+ bal; 8+ hcp, 2+ ctls, 4+ ♥
2♣-3♣ : relay; some 6322
3♦-3nt : relay; 3=6=2=2

I am interested in your 3NT bid here. Is it forcing? It seems to me that you could incorporate zooming here to avoid an unpleasant accident one day. It would also mean that you got to use the relay-based auction you wanted rather than switching to RKCB.

Edit: thinking about it, TOSR uses zooming by default iirc. Why did you take it out?

We do use zooming in most places, but not on the end of shape. There are two reasonable things that can be zoomed here: 1. zooming shows some 8311 then 9211 hands since those also go through this sequence but we have no real way to show them. 2. zoom to show controls, but controls aren't always what you want. In other auctions where shape comes up (like a minor 4333 that has diamonds that shows it by bidding 3♦ when clubs could have been 3♣) we judge there is enough room, and key card is sometimes what we want.

There is no explicit agreement that we have with respect to if 3nt should be forcing or not. It mostly really should be in auctions where the responder is unlimited. Those bids are forced with anything from a bad 8 count to a 20 count. Going through me bidding 3nt or me bidding 4♦ to sign off allows the information to come through.

[Zelandakh]

 Siegmund, on 2013-January-30, 23:10, said:

1D 1H
3C 3S
4C 6NT(?)

At this point we have no more science, and responder just blasts something. My partners always seem to blast 6NT even though 6 of either partner's suit makes quite a bit more often.

If you are going to blast something then I think 6♥ makes more sense than 6NT. Partner might have a 1165 for example, and you will feel a little silly on a spade lead. You also might well need to ruff a minor out. I can see very little merit in 6NT.

For a scientific approach, you could perhaps try starting with 4♦. Depending on your methods, you can probably have a more controlled auction now, esepcially if you have ways of changing strain later.

 Siegmund, on 2013-January-30, 23:10, said:

1C 1H (1H=8+, 4+ hearts, very often longer since many 4-card heart suits are suppressed)
2D 2H (natural 16-20ish, natural and forcing)
3C

After this I am again a bit lost. Does responder rebid 3H as if he had 7 (after which he'll sail into 6H) or drive to 6D expecting an 8-card fit or blast to 6NT or what? So much bidding space left after 3C, and I have no clue how to use it, since it's sort of a dark corner of the system.

I think 3♥ is clear now - see Justin's auction for practically the same position.

Have a think about it and see if you can come up with a sensible auction. By default, it feels to me like you would be most likely to finish in 6♥ playing either system.

[Siegmund]

(Unassuming:)

Quote

If you are going to blast something then I think 6♥ makes more sense than 6NT

I didn't say 6NT was the best decision. I merely reported it's the decision I see 80 or 90% of int-adv types make in this situation, where they have determined they have slam values and do not have 8 cards in either major. I am trying hard to make myself jump to 6 of something else in spots like this, after seeing way too many times where the suit contract would have done a trick better.

(Malfoir):

Quote

I think 3♥ is clear now - see Justin's auction for practically the same position.

Have a think about it and see if you can come up with a sensible auction. By default, it feels to me like you would be most likely to finish in 6♥ playing either system.

If we assume responder will rebid 3H, then opener will try to sign off at 4H (my responder still hasn't shown extra strength just extra length) and then I can give a sweep cue-bid demonstration, though the system is much better suited to starting a level lower usually:

1C-1H
2D-2H
3C-3H
4H-4S (slam interest, first in spades)
5D-5S (first in both minors, but bad trumps under the circumstances / second in spades, and good enough trumps the 6-level is safe)
5NT-6NT (GSF / best possible trump holding, and all my cuebids were high cards not shortness)
7NT (and now disaster strikes: opener counts 2 spades, 7 hearts, 2 diamonds, and 2 clubs, and expects to be able to claim at trick 1.)

The good news is he'll probably be forced to make it, with the spade onside.