Page 1 of 1
unusual sequence
#1
Posted 2013-April-08, 05:26
This came up in a (local) MSC problem and I found it interesting. I will probably post the problem itself at some point but first a double question. The bidding starts:
1♠ - (P) - 1NT - (P);
2♠ - (3♥).
What would Double mean now by Responder, and does it make a difference whether 1NT is forcing or not?
1♠ - (P) - 1NT - (P);
2♠ - (3♥).
What would Double mean now by Responder, and does it make a difference whether 1NT is forcing or not?
(-: Zel :-)
#2
Posted 2013-April-08, 05:32
If 1NT is NF then it is quite clear that it is penalty.
If 1NT is forcing then it could be useful to play double as showing 10-11 points with doubleton support. It would be an optional double, then. But I still think that penalty is best.
If 1NT is forcing then it could be useful to play double as showing 10-11 points with doubleton support. It would be an optional double, then. But I still think that penalty is best.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
#3
Posted 2013-April-08, 05:42
Penalty. We're getting rich.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
George Carlin
#4
Posted 2013-April-08, 05:48
I think it is the other way around ( Helene ).
If Responder had a ♥ stack but not enough points for a 2/1 GF, s/he would be relegated to bid 1NTF first .... so in this case X would be penalty .
If non-forcing 1NT, s/he could bid 2H ( 1 Rnd forcing ) .
But in this case, I don't know what the X should mean .... I think you need prior discussion on this one -- would Responder have 4 cards ♥ ( can't have 5 since could have bid 2H w/10,11 hcp ) or ♥-shortness ?
If Responder had a ♥ stack but not enough points for a 2/1 GF, s/he would be relegated to bid 1NTF first .... so in this case X would be penalty .
If non-forcing 1NT, s/he could bid 2H ( 1 Rnd forcing ) .
But in this case, I don't know what the X should mean .... I think you need prior discussion on this one -- would Responder have 4 cards ♥ ( can't have 5 since could have bid 2H w/10,11 hcp ) or ♥-shortness ?
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#5
Posted 2013-April-08, 08:18
I play forcing NT with a limited 2♠, so X is penalty and shows values plus some heart length, as I play it.
Playing non-forcing (which I don't), then it is not so clear for me, but if 1NT can be passed, and 2♠ is to play, while responder may perhaps be wanting to make a spade game invitation, conceivably wanting X for that, there is also the need to cater for, say, a 10 count with 4 hearts, and this would seem more common. So I would think penalty also.
Maybe forcing/non forcing NT does not come into it. Perhaps it depends on whether 2♠ is limited to say a 14 count or whether it can be stronger. If it could be 16, then there are reasons in both treatments to make it spade game invitation.
Playing non-forcing (which I don't), then it is not so clear for me, but if 1NT can be passed, and 2♠ is to play, while responder may perhaps be wanting to make a spade game invitation, conceivably wanting X for that, there is also the need to cater for, say, a 10 count with 4 hearts, and this would seem more common. So I would think penalty also.
Maybe forcing/non forcing NT does not come into it. Perhaps it depends on whether 2♠ is limited to say a 14 count or whether it can be stronger. If it could be 16, then there are reasons in both treatments to make it spade game invitation.
#8
Posted 2013-April-08, 10:02
helene_t, on 2013-April-08, 05:32, said:
If 1NT is forcing then it could be useful to play double as showing 10-11 points with doubleton support. It would be an optional double, then. But I still think that penalty is best.
With 10-12 points and doubleton support, not wanting to insist on penalty, responder could scrape up a 3S bid opposite partner's known 6 of them. Penalty is definitely best for the double.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#9
Posted 2013-April-08, 11:23
both are penalty, of course. take out? for what? If pd has a minor worth to bid at 4 level, bid it.
Senshu
#11
Posted 2013-April-10, 10:28
yunling, on 2013-April-10, 10:24, said:
Then what will you do with a 3145 6 count?
raise spades the first time?
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
Page 1 of 1