[elwood913]

I want to incorporate Kokish into my 2♣ strong artificial opening structure. I looked around and was surprised to find little agreement about a standard for this bid. The good players I asked at the club, and the sources I found online, varied significantly in their understanding of both Opener's bids to show different big NT ranges and Responder's options at different stages in the auction.

So, I have a few questions:

1) Is there any standard? If two expert players sit down and agree to play Kokish without any further discussion would there be one set of bids and responses that they could rightly say they have agreed to play? If so, what is it?

2) The most common structures I found had Opener bidding increasingly bigger bids to describe incrementally more HCP.
Something like:
2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT = 22-23
2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 2NT = 24-25
2♣ - 2♦ - 3NT = 26-27
2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3NT = 28-29
2♣ - 2♦ - 4NT = ???
etc...
I found this disappointing. I thought the whole point of Kokish was to keep from having to blast 3NT with our biggest hands, depriving our side of room and system tools to explore for slam (or even proper game strain). Sure, this structure grabs a few more HCP into the range where you can bid 2 NT instead of 3NT, but above 25 or so HCP Opener is stuck with an unwieldy 3NT. Is that as good as it gets? Or is there a workable structure where all Opener's big NT hands rebid a Kokish 2NT, showing something like 24+ or 25+, unlimited, and we work out the strength later on?

2.1) If the answer is "Yes, opener can show 24+ or 25+, unlimited, and work out his strength later," Great! - that's what I was hoping for... How's it work? How does Responder bid to account for the added uncertainty of not knowing how high he ultimately wants to be? And how does Opener show extras later if he has them?

2.2) If you answer "No, it is too hard to work out strength later if Opener leaves his NT range unlimited - It is best to get his range out right away, bidding 3NT (or higher) if need be," What system do you use over 3NT (or even 4NT) to try to bid our slams, or get to the right game strain?

3) What ranges are best? I found 2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT showing both 22-23 and 22-24 common. Also the Kokish bids, when showing specific ranges, varied between 2- and 3-point ranges. Is one method clearly best, or do they all have pros and cons and you can choose according to partnership style/preference? Also, after 2♣ - 2♥* (double neg) what does Opener need to bid 3NT?

4) What are Responder's options after 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥? Must he bid 2♠, or can he break the relay to show certain specific hand types? I found quite a few different methods here, so I expect there is no standard structure - anyone out there have a favorite?

Thanks!
Bill

[Vampyr]

 elwood913, on 2013-May-22, 10:28, said:

4) What are Responder's options after 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥? Must he bid 2♠, or can he break the relay to show certain specific hand types? I found quite a few different methods here, so I expect there is no standard structure - anyone out there have a favorite?

We play that 2NT shows the desire to play in a minor at the 3-level opposite the lower balanced range, which for us is 20-poor 22. I have no idea whether this is best or whether anyone else plays it. My guess is that the answer to both is "no", because the frequency is very low. I am pretty sure that Frances has super methods.

[TylerE]

Much ado about nothing, imo. In all the hands I've ever played 20,000+ , I've held a 28 count exactly never, and a 27 count only once. 24s and 25s are a bit more common, and that's the sequence you're really protecting.

[ahydra]

A balanced 30-count once came up on BBO. The expert pair in question proceeded to bid to the wrong grand slam I've never held anything above 24, probably because I don't play much more than once a week.

22-23 and 24-25 are the most common ones and playing one of those with the relay and the other without is more than adequate. Without agreement - well surely you agree your 2NT opening bid? If not, assume 20-22 since that's standard. Then 2C-2D-2NT = (2NT max + 1) to (2NT max + 2), and 2C-2D-2H-2S-2NT = (2NT max + 3) to (2NT max + 4).

ahydra

[manudude03]

I've had a 30 count on BBO during a robot tourney (and AKQJx AK AKQJT x....). But that's off-topic. When playing Kokish, I prefer to play 2C-2D-2H-2S-2NT as 25+

[ArtK78]

2♣ - 2♦ - 3NT should show a 9 trick hand based on a long minor suit and power everywhere. Otherwise, the various Kokish bids should show ranges. Typically 22-23; 24-25; 26-27, etc.

[wank]

i'd play a direct 2nt as 25+ gf and going via kokish as a good 22 to 24 and open 2nt on 20 - bad 22. that avoids the wanky jumps to 3nt.

over the 2H relay, you can play 3m as to play (opener can still try 3nt with a fat fit) and 2nt as weak with both minors.

[jallerton]

 elwood913, on 2013-May-22, 10:28, said:

So, I have a few questions:

1) Is there any standard? If two expert players sit down and agree to play Kokish without any further discussion would there be one set of bids and responses that they could rightly say they have agreed to play? If so, what is it?

The standard parts to the agreement are that Responder normally bids 2♠ over 2♥, 2♣-2♦-2NT shows a particular balanced range and 2♣=2♦-2♥-2♠-2NT shows a different strong balanced range.

There's no standard as to which exact range is shown by which sequence. Something to agree with partner.

Quote

2) The most common structures I found had Opener bidding increasingly bigger bids to describe incrementally more HCP.
Something like:
2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT = 22-23
2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 2NT = 24-25
2♣ - 2♦ - 3NT = 26-27
2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3NT = 28-29
2♣ - 2♦ - 4NT = ???
etc...

Not common where I play. The whole point of Kokish is to give the partnership more room. One of the sequences stopping in 2NT is game forcing; just use if you are lucky enough to hold 27+ balanced.

Quote

3) What ranges are best? I found 2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT showing both 22-23 and 22-24 common. Also the Kokish bids, when showing specific ranges, varied between 2- and 3-point ranges. Is one method clearly best, or do they all have pros and cons and you can choose according to partnership style/preference? Also, after 2♣ - 2♥* (double neg) what does Opener need to bid 3NT?

2-point ranges are preferable, but it really depends on the rest of your system. How many sequences do you have available to show balanced hands?

Quote

4) What are Responder's options after 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥? Must he bid 2♠, or can he break the relay to show certain specific hand types? I found quite a few different methods here, so I expect there is no standard structure - anyone out there have a favorite?

The closest to standard is "always bid 2♠". Then if Opener has the strong balanced option you know what subsequent bids mean (play whatever you play over a 2NT opener). With some partners I have agreed to play 2NT+ over 2♥ as transfers showind 6+ cards in the next suit up, but there's also a case for using bids to show particular features with 5+ spades and making a statement about heart length.

[karlson]

The ranges you stated are more or less what I learned as well. Getting the 24-26 hands into a 2n rebid is really the big win, that's more frequent than the 27+ hands or whatever. But if you wanted to have more hands rebidding 2n so that responder can get his suits in, I would recommend playing one of the sequences (probably the immediate 2n rebid) as either 22-23 or 27+. Then responder can break texas or bid 4n over 3n and show significant extras as opposed to just a little bit.

One of the difficulties playing Kokish are the sequences where opener has hearts (intuitively, this is the loss, you don't get to bid 2h showing hearts). For instance after 2♥-2♠-3♥, you'd really like to be able to show a good raise to 4♥, but it's not obvious how you'd do that. Our solution was to play 3♠ artificial, showing a good heart raise, whereas hands with spades don't bid 2♠ over 2♥ (also helps with siding).
2♣-2♦-2♥-?
2♠:<5♠
2N:5+♠ and then
- 3♣: ♣+♥
- 3♦: ♦+♥
- 3♥: ♥
- 3♠: 24-26 balanced (or whatever range)
- 3N: whatever you like, we used it as superaccept (4♠ balanced)
- higher, as you like, I suggest various heart hands with spade support (6-3 or 6-4).

Edit: this seems to be basically Jallerton's last mentioned suggestion; I'm sure transfers could also work ok.

[fromageGB]

Surely the best use of NT ranges depends on what your initial response to 2♣ shows. You really want the 2NT and Kokish 2NT (ie 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 2♠ 2NT) rebids to be non-forcing when responder has a yarborough, while if you play 2♦ as some sort of positive (ie >x hcp) then you can afford to have the Kokish 2NT as 2 strength ranges (or initially unlimited), as it is game forcing (and depending on the value of x, also the direct 2NT).

My preference is 2♦ as the weakest reply, with both subsequent 2NTs non-forcing, and am happy with a 3NT 26/27 rebid, or a wider 25-27 after a positive 2♥ reply.

As you are normally safe for a higher contract with a positive and a 3NT, we play the same methods as over 2NT (puppet, transfers, minor suit stayman), to allow the hand types to be shown, but of course at a level higher. This is nowhere near perfect, as there is ambiguity, such as 3NT 4♥(transfer) 4♠ 4NT, which on the face of it can be either ace asking or natural with a 5 card major. But we accept this for simplicity, as it never happens in practice. (If it did, 4NT would be ace asking while a "just game hand" 5 card major would pass 3NT.)

[fromageGB]

 elwood913, on 2013-May-22, 10:28, said:

1) Is there any standard? If two expert players sit down and agree to play Kokish without any further discussion would there be one set of bids and responses that they could rightly say they have agreed to play? If so, what is it?

I always thought another standard, unmentioned so far, is that if opener's rebid is 2♠ it is a puppet forcing 2NT, to always allow room for opener to show a 2-suited hand. Depending on methods, "forcing" may be not literally true. I too break the 2♥ and 2♠ puppet when I have a 6+ card suit to transfer to.

[Vampyr/barmar - please allow me to end a sentence with a preposition. This comes in my list of accepted rule-breaking.]

[Vampyr]

 fromageGB, on 2013-May-23, 10:01, said:

[Vampyr/barmar - please allow me to end a sentence with a preposition. This comes in my list of accepted rule-breaking.]

I have always felt that this is acceptable; in fact I do not recognise the validity of this rule.