[dickiegera]

---

What should West bid now?
Do you agree with bidding so far?

Thank you

[gszes]

One of the things we learn as we go along is to consider how we will rebid
over various bids our partner will make. Your hand is more than strong enough
to make a reverse but strong enough to make game forcing bids opposite most
1 level response p makes.

The solution is not to worry about what to do after 1d p 1n the solution is to start
with 1c and over 1n be able to bid 2d. P will realize you are strong 17+ and have a
problem of some kind with NT (else you would be happy to rebid 2n)

Responder would have an easy 2h bid showing a problem with spades and your side
will easily avoid a very poor NT contract.

1c 1nt 2d 2h 3h(patterning out) 4c (choosing trumps and showing a minimum ) pass
since you are minimum for your previous bidding or your could try 5c if you feel
compelled to bid game (especially at imps).

[hrothgar]

gszes, on 2013-July-14, 17:58, said:

The solution is not to worry about what to do after 1d p 1n the solution is to start
with 1c and over 1n be able to bid 2d. P will realize you are strong 17+ and have a
problem of some kind with NT (else you would be happy to rebid 2n)

Playing standard methods, this reverse promises 5+ clubs...
4441 hands present a problem for most methods... (There's a reason that conventions like the Roman 2♦ opening were developed)

As gszes notes, if you open 1D you're going to have a nasty rebid problem over a 1NT advance.
Traditionally, I think that most people would rebid a heavy 2♣, hoping to catch up later in the auction.

If you want to be a bit more adventuresome, there are a couple of lies available to you

1. Open 1NT (my preferred choice)
2. Open 1C and lie about minor suit length when you reverse

[nige1]

dickiegera, on 2013-July-14, 13:16, said:

Do you agree with bidding so far?
What should West bid now?

---

I never know what to do on this kind of hand and I look forward to reading what experts do and why.

• As dealer, assuming 2/1, I reckon 1♣ = 10, 1♦ = 8, 1N = 6. I prefer 1♣ because it gives partner slightly more room to respond. Over partner's 1N reply, I'd reverse into 2♥, hoping that partner can bid notrump.
• After partner has responded 1N to my 1♦ opener, I reckon 2♥ = 10, 2♣ = 9, 3♣ = 8, 2N = 5.

I'm not happy with any of these auctions

[JLOGIC]

2C is not reasonable imo, the hand is just too good. It is not like over 1D p 1S, we are guaranteed a fit in a minor.

I would bid 2H hoping to follow with clubs. True if partner bids 3D or 3H, I will not be able to bid clubs at the 3 level, but if that happens I'm happy avoiding 3N with stiff J of spades, it is impossible that partner has a double spade stopper and doesn't bid 2N or 2S (depending on methods) over 2H.

On this hand I would expect it to go something like 2H 3H 4C 4D 5C P.

If west chose to bid 3C it would probably go 3H 4C 5C.

If west chose 2C it would go AP.

[JLOGIC]

hrothgar, on 2013-July-14, 18:04, said:

Playing standard methods, this reverse promises 5+ clubs...

Isn't this a bit circular? I mean if reverses promise 5-4 then strong 4441s just flat out don't exist. To me a reverse is 4441 or 5-4+. If I bid 3 suits my partner will realize I might be 4441. Maybe this is not standard, but if it is not then it seems like standard bidding just sticks its head in the sand about strong 4441s and you always "lie" about it, better seems to just acknowledge it's existence. Opening 1N on a prime 4441 18 count in order to avoid reversing doesn't seem like a great solution.

Generally I am in favor of opening 1C with 4-4 but with 4441 and a strong hand I think it's right to open 1D and hope your third bid can be 3C, it is much more economical and way more likely to happen than partner responding 1D to 1C if you play a walsh style. Just my opinion. I would understand rebidding 2N over 1S with this hand (I wouldn't) but over 1N I am happy to just bid out with knowledge of a fit and them having 9-10 spades.

[aguahombre]

When our (41) 4-4 opener reaches 18, we have a 3M splinter rebid available after 1♦-1nt.

Ignoring the spade Jack, this Prime-card 17 is close enough.

1D-1N
3S!-5C.

If the given hand were just slightly weaker, we would be content with the wide range NF 2C.
With the OP hand adjust to V KTXX AKXXX AKXX, the jump shift would be fine; so, our splinter as above is exactly 1-4-4-4.

The byproduct is that our reverses can truly show longer in the first suit.

[nigel_k]

It's between 2♣ and 3♣ and I would choose 2♣. 3♣ is a stretch but the known fit makes it an option.

Over 2♣ partner should seldom pass unless quite weak, he will try to either raise or give false preference.

[Zelandakh]

JLOGIC, on 2013-July-14, 20:33, said:

If west chose 2C it would go AP.

Not convinced about this statement Justin. Playing methods where 2♣ can be wide-ranging, it seems obvious to me for East to bid 2♦; then West can continue 2♥ and a sensible auction ensues.

[ggwhiz]

JLOGIC, on 2013-July-14, 20:33, said:

If west chose to bid 3C it would probably go 3H 4C 5C.

I would bid 2♥ also but we play lebensohl over that and in the context of 1nt being roughly 6-9.

It would likely continue 3D - 4C - 4H and I'm passing in fear of pard thinking we are cueing for diamonds. I usually have longer diamonds but 4-4-4-1 hands are a pain that all kinds of gadgets have tried to handle.

[JLOGIC]

Zelandakh, on 2013-July-15, 04:52, said:

Not convinced about this statement Justin. Playing methods where 2♣ can be wide-ranging, it seems obvious to me for East to bid 2♦; then West can continue 2♥ and a sensible auction ensues.

IIRC this is the auction where Frances plays 2 of a minor forcing on the basis that they will always balance with a 9 card major suit fit and ~half the deck? Or maybe I'm confusing 2 auctions.

Anyways, playing standard even if partner can have a good hand I don't see why east would want to keep the auction open with 2D, his hand is very bad. It is not analagous to 1D p 1H p 2C imo where we have xx AQxx Jxx Jxxx in which case our hand is pretty good obviously. And in terms of HCP or playing strength, our hand is closer to a minimum, compared to 1H which might just be bid with 5 hearts and a pretty light hand In this case we have minimum shape/fit for partner, we have 2 jacks in the minors. If we are false preferencing with this hand, it seems that we will be false preferencing with almost every hand. I do not think it is sound to bid over a 1N response like it is a 1M response.

[Winstonm]

My approach on these auctions has always been to offer a courtesy raise or preference to keep the bidding alive with enough hand to think game possible against 15-16-17 counts, which would be a super good 8 count on up to about 11 count. I don't see how one can worry about missing a 24 point game that is 17-16 opposite a 7 or 8.

[Fluffy]

West should bid:

2♣ if the hand is invitational (like a minimum reverse, a 1NT openeing or a 3m rebid)
2♥ reverse to show a GF 3 suiter later.


2♥ doesn't imply this strenght yet, but it is not a good idea to reverse with non GF 3 suiters, specially when there is no 5 card suit.

[mikeh]

JLOGIC, on 2013-July-14, 20:41, said:

To me a reverse is 4441 or 5-4+. If I bid 3 suits my partner will realize I might be 4441. Maybe this is not standard, but if it is not then it seems like standard bidding just sticks its head in the sand about strong 4441s and you always "lie" about it, better seems to just acknowledge it's existence.

I think you have accurately summarized 'standard' bidding!

4441 hands are, what, 3% of hands. Strong 4441 hands will be a fraction of that, and on a large percentage of them, either the opps or partner will take some action that makes our life easy. So we are going to have an 'unbiddable' 4441 hand maybe every 10 sessions or so? Or less.

And on many of them, our 'cross our fingers and hope to get by the next round' action will work.

Hence I know that I would rebid 2♣. As Al Roth used to say in the BW MSC, if I can get by this round, I'll be ok, and indeed I will IF partner gives me a bid.

Your point about arguing that 1♣ then a reverse could be understood to be some 4441 makes sense, but those of us who bid 2♣ do so because to us it is as or more playable to have partner alive to the fact that we may have close to a jumpshift and thus he should strain the keep the bidding alive.

I should add: this approach is a lot easier to play when one almost never opens 1♦ on 4=5 minors. The false preference to 2♦ virtually never costs the contract, tho it may cost an overtrick, since opener is marked with shape and we have a near max 1N. Partner will almost always have 5 diamonds, since otherwise he has the 4441 hand, and it is precisely then that we may need to give him another chance. When he bids 2♥, we are close to being worth a 3♠ call, but either way, we'll probably reach game now...in clubs.

I'm not claiming this is better than explicitly catering to 4441 in reverses: I'd have to give more thought to the costs of not promising 5 cards in the first bid suit. That there are costs seems to me undeniable: 1♦ 1♠ 2♥ if responder has to cater to diamonds being only 4 cards in length, things get complicated, it seems to me, for hands where responder wants to make a forward-going 3♦ call on a slam-suitable or even game-suitable hand with, say, Qxx in diamonds.

[mike777]

1d=1nt
2c=2d
2h=3 or 4c might get you to 5c

or

1d=1nt
2h=2nt(art/weakish)(direct 3d over 2h would be stronger)
3c=5c gets you there.

[rmnka447]

I'm rebidding 2 ♥. With my favorite partner, we play the cheaper of fourth suit or 2 NT as the potential weak bid. The 2 ♥ reverse promises that ♦ are a real suit, but could be only 4 if 4-4-4-1.

[fromageGB]

If playing an unbalanced (shortage) diamond 3♣ seems the obvious rebid. Too strong for 2♣ which would be passed with a hand stronger than responder's.
If not, then 2♥ gives you a chance to bid 3♣ next time. (I pass if responder bids 3♦.)

[MrAce]

I agree with the bidding so far, for the rest others made all the good pointsalready.

I would bid 2♠ in my prefered system which i posted long time ago in BBF.

Basically after

1m-1NT opener bids his shortness with all reverse hands, instead of side 4 card major and from there you can bid naturally or employ a relay method . I will not get into details for not hijacking the topic and i already posted them and the reasons why i like it. But simply because it instantly captures it when we are not belong to 3NT. And in these auctions if we are not belong to 3NT, it is not unlikely that we can be facing a board where game in 3NT fails while you are cold for slam.

This also applies after

1m-2NT auction, especially if 2NT is not just invitational but it is applicable even if it is just an invitation bid. Needs adjustment by opener.

Unfortunately this convention reminds me of bad memories. We were playing the final vs Ozdil team and Tokay and me were using this convention. It turned out to be a toe to toe match when we close huge gap in last 2 segment. Last segment Tokay played with Salvador but he thought Salvo knew this...but he didn't. At our table opponents end up in a disaster 3NT with a very reasonable auction while 6♣ was cold, we defeated them. At other table after 1m-1NT-2♠ which was meant to be shortness, Tokay and Salvo ended up in some ♠ contract, doubled .... Costed us the first place, since most of other scores were pretty much duplicated. Tokay claimed he psyched rather than using a convention that pd had no clue of. I was not convinced back then he still tries to convince me