[mikeh]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-December-08, 12:45, said:

You are double counting.

well, I did stress that I don't do arithmetic on these hands, so my numbers were hardly exact or relevant to anything I would do. I do think that whatever methods you use, this is a non-minimum opening after the J2N. 'Extra values' in these auctions doesn't mean we're slamming, at least not in any serious partnership I've ever been in. It just means that we have some degree of interest and are willing to explore, but we can still and often do play game after such a start.

[mike777]

with a roughly 5.5 loser hand and pard having a strong raise for 2nt I expect to be in slam often unless my h void is useless. IT may be difficult to stop short of rkc. and the 5 level unless pard is turned off with my h void.

easier to stop short if 2nt is less than strong spade raise or pard has a dead minimum..

[ggwhiz]

Like Mike I'm not interested in point count on hands like these.

The rule of thumb I was taught was that if you can think of a suitable minimum for partner that can make slam in under 15 seconds you have to at least try for it.

Since ♠KQxx and ♦KQx is plenty in a sub-minimum I would be more worried about missing the grand if I made a wimpy response to 2nt and may well make a try over a limit raise.

[Trinidad]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-December-08, 12:45, said:

You are double counting.

I agree with that in part. (I mentioned already that the shortness should not be counted as "extra values" and then, obviously, neither should the extra length.)

But let's look at it from another perspective: Part of these distributional assets were already in your opening bid. Given the 5053 distribution that you have, your values could have been much worse. You could have had: ♠QJxxx♥-♦Kxxxx♣KJx. Now partner tells you: "We have a nine card spade fit and at least 25 points.". He follows up with a question: "What do you think of slam?". With this hand, you should tell partner that you have shortness without extra values.

The hand in the OP is a lot better, particularly for slam purposes, than what a hand with shortness could have been. "A lot better than what it could have been" means the same as "extra values" in my book.

Rik