[manudude03]

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This is a hand where my partner and I had a bit of a misunderstanding over. Undiscussed, how would you take partner's double here? And also what would you do now?

edit: It's w/w at IMPs.

[gszes]

difficult to imagine a 2d bid that suddenly wants to x 4h for penalty. IMHO p is way more likely
to be something like 3064 or 4054 unlikely 4063 since 4s would be a standout bid there.
The problem with 5d is that it is possible for us to lose control if dia break poorly while clubs
should play as well or better than diamonds so go for the least amount of pain

5c

[nige1]

manudude03, on 2013-December-06, 17:11, said:

w/w at IMPs.
This is a hand where my partner and I had a bit of a misunderstanding over. Undiscussed, how would you take partner's double here? And also what would you do now?

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IMO 5♣ = 10, 4N = 9, Pass = 8, 5♦ = 7 .
Partner's double is likely to be T/O e.g. 4153, 4144, 4063, 4054, 3163, 3154, 3064, 3055; but if you're unsure then pass seems a good each-way bet.

[HighLow21]

Given that this is "Interesting Bridge Hands" and not "Advanced" or "Expert" I would play this as penalty and wouldn't want a partner doubling here for takeout unless we had specific agreements.

[HighLow21]

gszes, on 2013-December-06, 18:13, said:

difficult to imagine a 2d bid that suddenly wants to x 4h for penalty. IMHO p is way more likely
to be something like 3064 or 4054 unlikely 4063 since 4s would be a standout bid there.
The problem with 5d is that it is possible for us to lose control if dia break poorly while clubs
should play as well or better than diamonds so go for the least amount of pain

5c

Here's one:

Ax♠ KJ9x♥ AKxxxx♦ x♣

[mikeh]

On what planet is partner suggesting we bid spades, after rho made a 2-level negative double?

Had rho raised hearts and opener bid game, the penalty would be suggesting we bid unless we had unexpected defence or utterly hopeless shape....partner might well be 4=0=6=3 or such with a good hand.

As it is, this double is penalty. The fact that our heart holding suggests otherwise is not enough for me to say it isn't: partner has no idea of our heart holding and expects us to listen to the auction. He cannot seriously be suggesting playing spades, and he has 4N for the minors (or 5♣....4N suggesting at least 2 card length discrepancy and 5♣ at least 5 card length).

If partner intended this as takeout, we need to have a discussion about how the opps bidding spades makes spades unbiddable by us, like it or not.

[SteveMoe]

Agreeing MikeH. Adding partner doesn't need ♥HHxx or HJxx for this double. ♥Hxx could be enough.

[mikeh]

SteveMoe, on 2013-December-07, 00:21, said:

Agreeing MikeH. Adding partner doesn't need ♥HHxx or HJxx for this double. ♥Hxx could be enough.

I would be surprised if he doesn't have what he thinks of as 2 trump tricks. I have shown nothing, declarer has probably 7 hearts and shape, so partner would need an unusual hand to be able to double based on tricks outside of hearts. KJx or AJx are strong candidates

I actually have trouble constructing a hand on which everyone has their values, but the same is true for a takeout interpretation unless partner has completely lost his mind

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I'm not for a moment trying to predict the actual hand, but this sort of layout makes sense to me.

[rmnka447]

I'm passing.

At IMPs, sometimes you just have to stay fixed. This I think is one of them.

Yes, West has probably bid 4 ♥ on freakish hand with long, broken ♥s. But East has also presumably shown length in the black suits and some values by making a negative double over partner's 2 ♦ bid. It is possible that East has a one suited hand with not quite enough values to bid it directly over partner's overcall. But with West's 4 ♥ jump, no one at the table can know if that's the case or not.

If partner wants to compete further, it has to be on an extremely distributional hand with values. In which case, partner needs to be brazen and make a bid to show the distribution -- 4 ♠, 4 NT, 5 ♣, or 5 ♦. If partner isn't good enough to make such a bid, then the only option is to sit for 4 ♥. It isn't the time to be fishing for a fit in a secondary suit with a double. That kind of double may occasionally find you a game, but more often than not it'll find you presenting the opponents with a telephone number.

So, IMO, the double is for penalty. Partner might have a couple As and something like ♥ KJx where 4 ♥ -1 looks like a good bet and down something more if you have some useful cards.

PS - The above was composed without seeing mikeh's suggested layout of the hand.

[MrAce]

gszes, on 2013-December-06, 18:13, said:

difficult to imagine a 2d bid that suddenly wants to x 4h for penalty. IMHO p is way more likely
to be something like 3064 or 4054 unlikely 4063 since 4s would be a standout bid there.
The problem with 5d is that it is possible for us to lose control if dia break poorly while clubs
should play as well or better than diamonds so go for the least amount of pain

5c

You are not paying attention again bro. There is difference between looking and seeing.

You are placing pd with void ♥, when you hold only 2 of them and responder did not support his pd. Come on now! Does opener hold 9-10 of them ? He obviously is not suggesting spades and with minors he has an easy 5♣ or 4 NT bids available.

I bet pd has at least 3 cards ♥. I am not sure what his intentions are but if i was S at the table, i would think he is writing a speeding ticket or has the max of an overcall with some hearts rather than doubling with void ♥. Whether it's correct to make that kind of double or not with 3-4 hearts is debatable, but i don't really care because it will drag us into " my/your agreements" bs.

[ggwhiz]

For me, as a general rule this kind of double is takeout oriented but with extra's that says don't pull unless you think you can make it.

I'm passing and yes, they make once in a while but not often.

AK, Kx, Axxxxx, Kxx is a typical hand style since spades are pretty much out of the picture here.

[Fluffy]

Partner has something like 3172 very strong, Our defensive potential is negative due to diamond support and we belong to 5♦

[mikeh]

Fluffy, on 2013-December-07, 14:40, said:

Partner has something like 3172 very strong, Our defensive potential is negative due to diamond support and we belong to 5♦

why didn't he double 1♥?

Either you play non-standard methods or your partner wasn't 'very strong' in at least one sense of the phrase. No way should we be put in the position of guessing that he misbid on round 1.

[Fluffy]

because it is nuts to double first with something like Kx x AQJxxxx AQx, he doesn't have that hand for sure, but maybe AQx x AKJxxxx Kx he can.

[FrancesHinden]

I also think this is 'take-out' or at least an action double i.e. partner is showing a good hand and expecting us to do something sensible. I don't expect heart honours other than possibly the ace.

on Mikeh's sample hand (i) North has a 1NT overcall and, more relevantly, (ii) West does not have a 4H bid; note how well the hand plays in spades.
How likely do you think it is that partner has been dealt two trump tricks and that East isn't going to pull to 4S?

Against that, suppose North was looking at, say, Ax x AQJxxx AJxx. 4H is making comfortably (possibly with an overtrick) and we are one or two off in 5m. What would you do on that North hand?
Or partner could be more balanced with more high cards, e.g. Ax xx AKxxxx Axx. If he's got that hand we are probably stuffed, so there's no point worrying about it.

It's also quite possible that we might want to play in spades. A negative double usually has 4 spades, unless East decided to invent one on a 3=2=3=5 9-count (give it as a problem...). Opener doesn't have to have any spades at all - in fact he often has spade shortage to jump to 4H, because he's not concerned about responder having a negative free bid in spades. If we bid 4S I would certainly expect partner to pass with Hx. Suppose partner has this putative Ax xx AKxxxx Axx but now we have QJ109xx xx xx QJx. It's true that 4H was probably one off, but we have some chance of making 4S and it's certainly where we want to play. Even if spades are 5-0.

p.s. if you can't make the heart suit add up, remember that some people like to double with 4-3 in the majors on this auction.

[FrancesHinden]

p.s. I would look at my partner before deciding, by the way. If partner looked like a rubber bridge player or an elderly club player I'd know it was strict penalties. I admit I would have guessed mikeh's intentions wrong, but at least Fluffy and I are on the same page.

[mike777]

Clearly the forum found this double confusing...even vote split on whether this is penalty, takeout or optional.

[the_clown]

IMHO there is no way double here is penalty.

I have no idea if its best to play it as "I like to bid 5♦, but I double in case you have some ♥ tricks" or "I have a strong hand, please pass if you don't have anything special (like stiff♥ and good support)".

Anyway I think I would pass, 5♦X is probably headed for 300+ and they haven't made 4♥ yet. Of course it could be terribly wrong, if partner has the first hand type, but its my best guess.

[nige1]

FrancesHinden, on 2013-December-08, 13:02, said:

p.s. if you can't make the heart suit add up, remember that some people like to double with 4-3 in the majors on this auction.

Agree with the arguments of Fluffy, Frances and The_Clown. If the auction makes no sense, then you should tend to trust partner rather than opponents. Suppose you held
♠ x x x x ♥ J T x x ♦ x x ♣ Q x x
in an identical auction. You would probably pass; but if opponents asked what your partner's double meant, would you really explain its meaning as "Penalty"?

[mfa1010]

X is takeout in my book. Hearts can well be 8122 around the table. I'm taking it out, will try 5D but clubs could work better.