[1eyedjack]

what are the normal (playable) meanings, please after

S.....W.....N.....E

1N...P.....2C....3C(nat)
??

[mgoetze]

Are we talking about a weak or a strong NT here?

Pass should be the default action in either case, over a strong NT I would be more inclined to show my majors than over a weak NT, but I wouldn't do it with just any hand with a 4-card major.

Double is interesting, my first instinct was that it shows something in clubs but on reflection I'm pretty sure it should be takeout.

[1eyedjack]

Thanks.

I was wondering whether it remains possible to distinguish inv from gf responders, or whether we just have to make an assumption.

Presumably we also have to make an assumption about whether oppo suit is guarded for NT when no major fit is found.

Presumably we discount the possibility that responder may have garbage, even if systemically possible.

Anyway, if pass is the normal action by opener, that just defers the question to responder's next options.

Am interested in either range NT, where it makes a difference.

[mgoetze]

Well, if responder has an invite, opener has a minimum and no fit ... which contract do you want to end up playing?

I'm sure something could be gained, in theory, by making responder's rebids 3♦ = Hearts, 3♥ = Spades and 3♠ = Diamonds ... but I would never want to make such a complicated agreement for such a rare situation. Double is takeout would be the extent of what I agree, and natural forcing 3-level bids.

[1eyedjack]

Thanks

I am surprised that the situation is so rare. Obviously you need some Clubs, but given that, if the overcall causes significant problems for the opponents' followups, that should increase the frequency somewhat.

[helene_t]

What about:
pass=nothing to say, could have a four-card major but not with a doubleton clubs
dbl = penalty
3♦=hearts
3♥=spades
3♠=both majors

[FrancesHinden]

We play 2C as at least invitational. If it might be garbage stayman, I agree that pass is virtually always the default action. I would bid with a 5-card major only as even if partner has a garbage hand we have a fit.

With 1C as INV+ we play double as 5+ diamonds, bid a 4-card major and pass is neutral or penalties. Responder doubles on a balanced hand - as opener is likely to pass- other bids natural 5+ cards NF. Our 5-card major invite hands go through 2C as well, which impacts this slightly. Responder's 3D opposite either a pass or a double is also NF.

[mycroft]

I'm surprised that we haven't gone with double-> takeout, pass is generic or penalty, with responder's double being "please respond Stayman" (assuming the garbage hands will be happy to be out of this, so if partner passes, we're good).

I can't remember the last time they bid 3♣ on me (granted, I don't play Stayman any more, but still); they usually double instead. The 3 level is pretty heady into a potential "get out for -100".

[fbear]

I think they're more likely to double 2C than bid 3C, but you could still use a similar scheme over both.

I've just posted a note on 5 card Stayman and my partner and I play this over Stayman-X :-

1N-(P)-2C-(X)
?

Pass = no 4/5 card major and no club stop
XX = ditto but showing a club stop

other responses 'system on'

I don't see why you couldn't adopt Pass/X over 3C to show the same and respond 3D with one or more 4 card major or 3M with 5 cards.

This assumes 2C is as Frances plays showing some values, but I haven't missed Garbage Stayman since playing the same.