[Cthulhu D]

So, playing 5 card majors, a short club with transfer responses and 14-16 NT with invitational jump shifts, I've put a ton of work into being able to pass 1S-1N as often as possible. However, my partner does not like opening a 14-16NT with 5 spades (argh!), so this raises a question:

If you're generally not going to open 1N with your 5-3-3-2 hands in your NT range, what's the best use of 1S-1N-2C? Do you play some sort of 2C-2D gadget or do you play Gazzilli?

Edit:

Supplementary question. Partner and I play and like 1H-1S as 0-4 spades or 5+ spades and a GF, and 1NT to be 5+ spades invitational or less (as you can then happily pass 1NT on a bunch of junk). What do you do with 2N playing Gazzili after 1H-1S-?? then.

[Kungsgeten]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-December-08, 07:08, said:

So, playing 5 card majors, a short club with transfer responses and 14-16 NT with invitational jump shifts, I've put a ton of work into being able to pass 1S-1N as often as possible. However, my partner does not like opening a 14-16NT with 5 spades (argh!), so this raises a question:

If you're generally not going to open 1N with your 5-3-3-2 hands in your NT range, what's the best use of 1S-1N-2C? Do you play some sort of 2C-2D gadget or do you play Gazzilli?

Edit:

Supplementary question. Partner and I play and like 1H-1S as 0-4 spades or 5+ spades and a GF, and 1NT to be 5+ spades invitational or less (as you can then happily pass 1NT on a bunch of junk). What do you do with 2N playing Gazzili after 1H-1S-?? then.

I would play Gazzilli. I do not like this style (excluding 5M332 from the 1NT opening), but if playing it that way I think Gazzilli helps a bunch. You could have arguments against Gazzilli, but if 1M can be 5M332 with a strong NT and you play 2/1 GF, you need a way to show the strong NT so Gazzilli becomes almost essential?

In your case, perhaps you could try (I guess you do not play Flannery):

1H-1S;
1N = Unbalanced, 4+ diamonds or 4(+) spades.
2C = Gazzilli (natural, 14-16 bal or 16+ unbal)
2D = 11-13 bal.
2H = 6+ hearts. Limited.
2S = Reverse?
2N = 18--19
3CD = 5-5, 13-15
3H = 7-card suit, 13-15

You need some way to show 4+ spades, and the above might be a solution (bidding 1NT as an unbalanced catch-all). After 1N you could use 2C as a relay/checkback:

1H-1S; 1N-2C;
2D = Diamonds (now 2H is non-forcing)
2H = Spades (now 2S is non-forcing)

Perhaps the other bids could have different meanings:

1H-1S; 1N---
2C = Relay, weak or GF
2D = INV with 2+ hearts (transfer)
2H = INV with 4 spades (transfer)
Higher = GF with 5+ spades

[steve2005]

Playing Gazzilli or something similar makes it playable to rarely open 1N with a 5-card major.

[Cthulhu D]

Kungsgeten, on 2014-December-08, 09:16, said:

I would play Gazzilli. I do not like this style (excluding 5M332 from the 1NT opening), but if playing it that way I think Gazzilli helps a bunch. You could have arguments against Gazzilli, but if 1M can be 5M332 with a strong NT and you play 2/1 GF, you need a way to show the strong NT so Gazzilli becomes almost essential?

P's style is a bit more nuanced. So:

5332 with 5H always opens 1N, the risk of a 1S overcall and the cramped rebids outweighs the desire to show your major.
5332 with 5S generally opens 1S unless the major is poor (e.g. QTxxx or less)
5422 typically opens 1M.

My style is roughly:

5332 opens 1N
5422 sometimes opens 1N, so 1M-1N-2m is either unbalanced or with values packed into the two suits.

So I don't need to cater for 1H openers being 14-16 balanced. So prior to your post I was thinking something like

1H:

1S: 0-4 or 5+ GF
1N: Inv(-) with 5+
Other stuff normal

Then 1H-1S:

Spoiler

1N: 11-13 or diamonds - partner has 2C as some sort of forward going noise, we currently play it as a constructive 2D (whereas a direct 2D is a weak hand to play) or an NT invite. 2N relays to 3C as either a weak signoff or a slam try. 2H and 2S are natural. This is irritatingly easy to forget.
2C: Clubs or Gazzilli
2D: 6+ hearts
2H: 5/4 majors
2S: Reverse - but maybe it makes sense to play this as the 17-19 balanced hand
2N: 6M 4m 17+ - 3C is weak, 3D is GF relay, bid the major corresponding to the minor
3C: 14-16 5/5
3D: 14-16 5/5
3H: 14-16 with 6
3S: 6H 5S

and 1H-1N

Spoiler

2C: Clubs or Gazzilli (can be a GF raise of spades, which solves an issue)
2D: Natural
2H: Natural, limited
2S: 3 spades, minimal
2N: 17-19
3C: 5/5 14-16
3D: 5/5 14-16
3H: 6 with a great suit 14-16
3S: invitational to 4S

Whereas after 1S-1N

Spoiler

2C: Clubs or Gazzilli
2D: Diamonds
2H: Hearts
2S: Min
2N: 6/4 major/minor very strong
3C: 14-16 5/5
3D: 14-16 5/5
3H: 14-16 5/5
3S: 14-16 with 6 and a great suit

However, I am rethinking some of that. We do not play Flannery no.

Quote

In your case, perhaps you could try (I guess you do not play Flannery):

1H-1S;
1N = Unbalanced, 4+ diamonds or 4(+) spades.
2C = Gazzilli (natural, 14-16 bal or 16+ unbal)
2D = 11-13 bal.
2H = 6+ hearts. Limited.
2S = Reverse?
2N = 18--19
3CD = 5-5, 13-15
3H = 7-card suit, 13-15

This is pretty clever, though I don't like driving past 1N with the weak NT as that often rates to be the best place to play. That said, I think you are often going to be able to pass as responder if it's a potential misfit.

Quote

You need some way to show 4+ spades, and the above might be a solution (bidding 1NT as an unbalanced catch-all). After 1N you could use 2C as a relay/checkback:

1H-1S; 1N-2C;
2D = Diamonds (now 2H is non-forcing)
2H = Spades (now 2S is non-forcing)

Perhaps the other bids could have different meanings:

1H-1S; 1N---
2C = Relay, weak or GF
2D = INV with 2+ hearts (transfer)
2H = INV with 4 spades (transfer)
Higher = GF with 5+ spades

This makes sense, the 2C as checkback is a good idea.

[PhilKing]

I have pretty similar systemic considerations, since I play a mini no trump in certain positions, so the medium strength no trump hands cannot play in 1NT. However, I do not believe Gazilli is the answer to anything. My view is that it overloads the 2♣ bid and frequently gets us too high. This is what I do after 1♠-1NT:

2♣ = natural or balanced or a good 2♠ rebid (circa 15-16)
2♦♥♠NT = natural
3♣ = GF with hearts
3♦ = nat GF
3♥ = GF with clubs

After 1♠-1NT-2♣:
2♦ = 9+ relay
2♥♠ = weak
2NT = misfit, circa 9 points with a death shape - eg 1453
3♣ = nat 6 cards with about 8-9 points
3♦ = nat weak
3♥ = 5♥4♣ inv

After 1♠-1NT-2♣-2♦:
2♥ = 11-14 bal (this enables responder to pass with 9-10 points with 5 hearts, sign off in 2♠, or make an inv bid in any strain)
2♠ = 11-14 5♠ 4+♣
2NT = 15+ balanced or 5134 or 5224
3♣ = 55 15+
3♦ = 6♠ 15-16
3♥ = 5314
3♠ = 6♠4♣

After 1♥-1♠(FNT) and 1♥-1NT(5♠) I play pretty similar continuations to you, and the step 1 relay works in just the same way. I will try and post later.

[mgoetze]

PhilKing, on 2014-December-09, 05:46, said:

However, I do not believe Gazilli is the answer to anything. My view is that it overloads the 2♣ bid and frequently gets us too high.

Certainly there are situations where naturalish followups do not work well. A good Gazzilli system probably requires quite a bit of artificial followup bidding.

[mgoetze]

PhilKing, on 2014-December-09, 05:46, said:

This is what I do after 1♠-1NT:

[...]
3♣ = GF with hearts

This is presumably so you can handle both 5-5 and 6-4? Would you mind sharing the followups?

[Cthulhu D]

Couple of other clarification questions as well:

In a couple of places you can show the same hand directly or via the 2C gadget. E.g.

You have both 1S-1N-2N v 1S1N-2C-2D-2N to show a balanced hand. If the direct bid is basically GF are the relay bids 15-17 HCP?

[Free]

I'm a big fan of Gazzilli so that's what I'd suggest. With standard responses you can get very far, if you want more science you can easily develop that as well.

When I played Kaplan inversion (1NT showing 5+♠) in the past, we combined it with Gazzilli without any issues as well.

[PhilKing]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-December-09, 08:42, said:

Couple of other clarification questions as well:

In a couple of places you can show the same hand directly or via the 2C gadget. E.g.

You have both 1S-1N-2N v 1S1N-2C-2D-2N to show a balanced hand. If the direct bid is basically GF are the relay bids 15-17 HCP?

2♣ is NF in my structure, so the direct 2NT is 18-19 and the delayed is 15-17 bal or 15+ with clubs.

[mike777]

I like BART

it is pretty straight forward and helps on a lot of hands.

2d-says you have 1 of a few hand types, most common is 5h (others include inv hands in either minor, and really good hands with 2 card spade support.)

2h=6h less than inv.

2s= 3 card support and less than constructive or 2 card support and 9 highs at most

2nt=12-13 ish(lite openers) inv.

3c=5+c, less than inv, blocking bid

3d=6+ less than inv



3h=6+ inv
3s=3 card support, inv.

----

various replies after:
1s=1nt
2c=2d
?

[johnu]

mike777, on 2014-December-11, 10:54, said:

I like BART

I was wondering who (still) played BART

[snillrik13]

I vote for Gazzilli especially the ultimate? version in my web site www.fan.fantunes where I use 2d Multi as 12-15 h or s suit, 6-carder. Then 1M-1NT>2M is M plus clubs and 12-15. Now 1NT-2c is always Gazzilli.

[Free]

snillrik13, on 2014-December-25, 06:47, said:

I vote for Gazzilli especially the ultimate? version in my web site www.fan.fantunes where I use 2d Multi as 12-15 h or s suit, 6-carder. Then 1M-1NT>2M is M plus clubs and 12-15. Now 1NT-2c is always Gazzilli.

You mean 1NT-2♣ is always strong? Because Gazzilli is 2-way...

[snillrik13]

Free, on 2014-December-27, 03:12, said:

You mean 1NT-2♣ is always strong? Because Gazzilli is 2-way...

Yes 2C is not two-way but Always strong. Helps a lot.

[mgoetze]

snillrik13, on 2014-December-31, 08:09, said:

Yes 2C is not two-way but Always strong. Helps a lot.

So you want to play modified Riton.

[snillrik13]

mgoetze, on 2014-December-31, 11:05, said:

So you want to play modified Riton.

No somthing else and more oppurtunities. Why not take a look at my site www.fanfantunes.n.nu?