[nige1]

mcphee, on 2015-January-04, 08:38, said:

The fact you got a zero because the room failed to bid a cold 4!S (+1 on H lead) is not your fault.

If your opponents make 4♠+1, then it's your fault, whether or not you lead a ♥

[nekthen]

Interesting hand that shows the power of the spade suit and being white v red.
If the bidding does go 1♦ x 1♠ p 2♠
Perhaps South should consider his chances of getting 4♠ down and pass!
I doubt whether West would seriously consider 4♠ when South could well have a more typical hand for his double

[nekthen]

This hand is a super example of how bad the HCP hand evaluation can be and how powerful the spade suit is.
Consider the position for South after 1♦ x 1♠ p 2♠

4♥ looks completely normal, but you are practically telling opps to bid 4♠ and you know you cannot beat it!
If you pass, opps will not place you with a heart stack and are likely to take their plus score and pass. You will at least beat those in 5♥.

[whereagles]

nige1, on 2015-January-05, 00:31, said:

Wackojack's more practical 4♥ overcall failed to win the auction only because LHO took a brave view.

Brave/reckless [strikeout where appropriate, depending on the result].

I've seen much more reasonable 4♠ bids going for 1700... Gonzalo has seen that too.. lol.

[nekthen]

Interesting hand that shows the power of the spade suit and the short comings of the hcp hand evaluation

IMO Double is clearly best. The second bid is interesting though:
1♦ x 1♠ p
2♠ ?

IMO you should now pass! You know what will happen if you bid 4♥, opps will bid 4♠ and you can see that it is working, partner will have no tricks and you have 2/3. If you pass opps will not know about the heart stack and are unlikely to bid. Conceding 170 is better than 420 or 200 from 5♥. On losing trick count West is worth 4♠, but may well decide that a plus is good and there may be a bad trump break and maybe some of partner's values are in hearts. Bidding 4♥ after the double just paints the picture for opps to make the right call.

[billw55]

I don't think 4♥ is so bad. With RHO's opening bid, slam is very unlikely.

The bad luck is that opponents are cold for game with 17 points. No, I am not too surprised that the field did not bid this. Perhaps you were already fixed when east opened the bidding. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[whereagles]

nekthen, on 2015-January-05, 07:45, said:

IMO Double is clearly best. The second bid is interesting though:
1♦ x 1♠ p
2♠ ?
IMO you should now pass!

That's taking a rather streeeeeeeeeeeeched view.

And actually a reason to bid 4♥: I'd much rather take my chances on a random 4♥ than in passing in that scenario.

[brettnj]

Are you kidding? How could you NOT double and bid with a 5-loser hand?

[Fluffy]

upsman, on 2015-January-04, 04:14, said:

i wonder , if theres somebody in world, who wont double.
after 1♥ normally it will go on like this:

1♦ - 1♥ - pass - pass - pass

congrats, in this case you lost at least full game.

Normally doesn't mean the same to me than to you.

[wank]

4h is horrid.

you have 20 high and a fairly balanced hand so why are you scared of what the opps might make? you want to start with double to allow investigation. any idiot can imagine 3nt being cold with 4h having 4 losers off the top.

[cherdano]

I am not sure there is enough room to investigate 3NT intelligently after a double without overstating your strength. X + cue + 3♥? Sounds like a stronger hand to me. X + 3♥ over 1♠? Not sure that is forcing, and I do want to force to game.
On the other hand, if you play 3♦ as stopper ask with a solid suit, then that's the bid I would choose.

[MrAce]

wank, on 2015-January-05, 09:51, said:

4h is horrid.

you have 20 high and a fairly balanced hand so why are you scared of what the opps might make? you want to start with double to allow investigation. any idiot can imagine 3nt being cold with 4h having 4 losers off the top.

Because somehow, S decided by himself that THEY are the ones who holds spades and NOT pd, and pd is not coming from pass either. No need to mention, had S started DBL, there is a good chance that they were not reaching to game. When S starts dbl, W bids 1♠, E raises, S bids 3♥ (imo bidding 4♥ direct or after the double by S hand is horrible) E has to bid 4♠ now, will he?

-He does not have the multi shot purpose like he did vs 4♥. now opponents did not bid 4♥ and he can try to buy at 3 level.
-He may suspect that S may hold spades too for starting dbl instead of 1♥.
-He may think his pd has something like 4432 with ♥ values since S did not show his solid hearts by jumping to 4♥. It is much easier to bid 4♠ when you see S bidding 4♥ all by himself, showing a long solid suit oriented strong hand and you have a void ♥.

But somehow OP seems to believe that, starting 4♥ with this hand is the way to shut them down even before knowing who has spades. Besides the fact that you stated, we may belong to 3 NT.

[kevincline]

If we bid 1♥ we are likely to have to make a decision over 4♠. Bidding 4♥ may end the auction.

The only reason to double is to reach a slam. But we are missing two aces and three kings. Even if we assume the club hook we still need partner to hold AKK in the pointy suit. That requires East to have opened 1♦ with something like Jxx x AJxxxx KJx and for partner to have the rest. Not very likely. I'm just bidding 4♥ and hoping to buy it there.

[Cthulhu D]

I've considered playing Naymats a like here here, so 3NT would be a strong 4M bid, and a direct 4H would be more preemptive. In which case that is a perfect description of my hand.

The overcall structure guys suggest playing 4C and 4D as Naymats, as another possibility.

I'm not sure the loss of the 4C/4D preempts is worth it though, but I've never wanted to overcall 3NT playing my methods so... why would I want to do that now I guess.

[biggerclub]

Cthulhu D, on 2015-January-05, 23:44, said:

3NT would be a strong 4M bid, and a direct 4H would be more preemptive.

I like it. What is funny about this hand is the side bidding 4Hs to make is down while the side bidding 4Ss to sac makes. LOL. Or at least I think the OPPs were thinking they were sac'ing.

[Wackojack]

nige1, on 2015-January-05, 00:35, said:

If your opponents make 4♠+1, then it's your fault, whether or not you lead a ♥

So it is my fault when partner leads a heart and declarer plays a perfectly normal line to make 11 tricks?

[nige1]

mcphee, on 2015-January-04, 08:38, said:

The fact you got a zero because the room failed to bid a cold 4!S (+1 on H lead) is not your fault.

nige1, on 2015-January-05, 00:35, said:

If your opponents make 4♠+1, then it's your fault, whether or not you lead a ♥

Wackojack, on 2015-January-07, 10:21, said:

So it is my fault when partner leads a heart and declarer plays a perfectly normal line to make 11 tricks?

I apologise. Mcphee and Wackojack are right. I forgot to invoke Gib, who usually keeps my foot out of my mouth