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Non forcing, constructive. (ACBL CC)

Poll: Non forcing, constructive? (15 member(s) have cast votes)

My understanding of NF Constructive is

  1. Partner has values but no tolerance for overcallers suit, nf (1 votes [3.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.45%

  2. Partner has values, tolerance for overcallers suit, nf (1 votes [3.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.45%

  3. Partner has a good suit, silent as to tolerance for over callers suit, nf (12 votes [41.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.38%

  4. Overcaller is obliged to bid again (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Overcaller is obliged to bid again unless non fitting minimum (10 votes [34.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.48%

  6. I have not discussed it in any detail (3 votes [10.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.34%

  7. We have discussed it in detail (2 votes [6.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.90%

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#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2015-January-13, 10:00

As shown on the ACBL Convention card, you likely have "NF Const" ticked under responses to Simple Overalls.

What is your understanding of NF Constructive, have you discussed it with your partner?
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#2 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2015-January-13, 10:42

View Postjillybean, on 2015-January-13, 10:00, said:

What is your understanding of NF Constructive, ...

Overcaller should bid again with an above average overcall, including one which has been improved by a fit for advancer's suit.

View Postjillybean, on 2015-January-13, 10:00, said:

... have you discussed it with your partner?

No. When I play NF/constructive advances I just hope our common understanding is close enough.
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#3 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2015-January-13, 12:23

I don't in fact have that agreement (except when advancer is a passed hand); but if I did, I would expect it to be "it's forcing, but I've seen some of your overcalls before." Sort of in the way that 1-1; 1 is "Non-forcing" - you can pass it, but you'd better be right.
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#4 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2015-January-13, 12:30

I've defined NF Constructive as 8-13 or so. Suit quality, stoppers, tolerance are all dependent on context. Better hands make a jump shift or fake a cue

I think overcaller should raise with a non-minimum overcall (10 or better).

Currently a cue bid is still forcing and not natural.
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#5 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2015-January-13, 13:38

What it says on the tin. Constructive (e.g. a bit more than a minimum response, I more or less agree with Phil's 8-13 range), but not forcing. Nothing about suit quality or (non)support implied, although it probably denies the ability to make some sort of more specific raise if fitting - e.g. we have some sort of 4 card invite gadget, it isn't that hand.
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#6 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-January-14, 05:20

I think that a CC with tick-boxes is a poor idea, since partners can go through the card and tick things without making sure that their understanding of a treatment is the same.

Anyway, although NF, constructive is my preference, I will go along with partners who prefer forcing, so that the cue-bid guarantees support.
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#7 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2015-January-14, 08:31

According to ACBL's Conventional Wisdom:
If partner usually expects you to bid again except in
cases where your overcall is a minimum and the hands are misfitting,
check the “NFConst” box.


Sounds like forcing to me and a good discussion to have had with my partner.
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#8 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-January-14, 10:17

I also play cues promise fit. I play NF constructive a little wider than Phil's like 8-15. I really don't like the idea of cueing w/o fit with 14-15 or jumping all over the place to make a forcing bid even if this is natural in your agreements. (to me it is fit showing)
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#9 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2015-January-14, 10:46

View Postjillybean, on 2015-January-14, 08:31, said:

Sounds like forcing to me and a good discussion to have had with my partner.


Forcing bids are like pregnancy. Either they are, or they aren't. Semi-forcing isn't.
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#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-January-14, 12:07

View PostMrAce, on 2015-January-14, 10:17, said:

I also play cues promise fit. I play NF constructive a little wider than Phil's like 8-15. I really don't like the idea of cueing w/o fit with 14-15 or jumping all over the place to make a forcing bid even if this is natural in your agreements. (to me it is fit showing)


How do you keep change of suit NF, cue promises fit and jump shift=fit? What do you do with a big non-fitting hand? (I realise that it is somewhat unlikely that you hold one when lefty and partner have both bid, but it happens, so surely one must be able to bid it?)
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#11 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-January-14, 12:43

View PostVampyr, on 2015-January-14, 12:07, said:

How do you keep change of suit NF, cue promises fit and jump shift=fit? What do you do with a big non-fitting hand? (I realise that it is somewhat unlikely that you hold one when lefty and partner have both bid, but it happens, so surely one must be able to bid it?)


It indeed rarely happens and when it does

a-I may bid the most likely game
b-I may lie about a fit unless I am void or stiff in his suit.
c-I may just bid my suit and take the risk of being passed.

I usually apply one of these 3 when I have a huge hand, depending on what I hold. When you take into consideration how rare they are as you stated and that after that rare instance one of these 3 not able to be applied is very tiny range of hands that I don't think anyone should be concerned about them.
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#12 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-January-14, 13:26

Does anyone remember when it was popular (well, it may have been a regional thing) to treat IIRC 1/1 or 2/2 advances as forcing but not 2/1? Does anyone still play that?
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#13 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2015-January-14, 16:42

View PostVampyr, on 2015-January-14, 13:26, said:

Does anyone remember when it was popular (well, it may have been a regional thing) to treat IIRC 1/1 or 2/2 advances as forcing but not 2/1? Does anyone still play that?

Yes I play that with Shogi, it was standard in Biedemeijer (as I understand it, inspired by SEF, maybe some SEF expert here can comment on it).
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#14 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2015-January-15, 09:08

Forum D has 1/1 forcing and 2/1 NF (8-12, 6+ suit) so I assume this is the same in SEF. The cue here is 11+ without a more descriptive bid available.
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#15 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2015-January-15, 09:50

View PostZelandakh, on 2015-January-15, 09:08, said:

Forum D has 1/1 forcing and 2/1 NF (8-12, 6+ suit) so I assume this is the same in SEF. The cue here is 11+ without a more descriptive bid available.


Yes, we play the same in Spain, although my dad defines 2/1 as "forcing unless you overcalled on crap". And also worth noting that since 2/1 is NF, I play 3/1 forcing, so cuebid is always with fit.
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#16 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-January-15, 11:33

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