[cherdano]

 billw55, on 2015-January-19, 15:38, said:

Running up the score is a common problem in American amateur sports.

It's not a problem in European amateur sports. Not because there are no mismatches, but because there is no etiquette against against doing so

Seriously, I never heard the phrase "running up the score" before I lived in the US. To this day, I wouldn't know how to translate it to German.

[gwnn]

If I count correctly, there is (for=for playing to their best ability and "humiliating"):

NA unclear: mike777, barmar, mycroft (3 - mike777 seemed to be more concerned with the exact regulations while barmar and mycroft concentrated on the all-field press)
NA for: kenberg, Mbodell, blackshoe (3)
NA against: GreenMan, Bbradley62, ArtK78, billw55 (4)
EU unclear: Fluffy, cherdano (Fluffy talking about unorthodox tactics in football, cherdano as per his own account)
EU for: helene_t, Trinidad, gwnn (4 - I put cherdano in here since he said he'd never heard of the problem before coming to the US so I assume he still doesn't consider it one, maybe wrong)
EU against: PhilKing, dicklont, diana_eva (3)
non-NA/EU: sfi (against, but cannot put him in either category without offending everyone)

so: NA is only 4:3 against "running up the score" and EU is tied at 3:3.

Actually I was surprised that it was this close since I had the same exact impression cherdano had, that it was a US/Europe thing.

edit: moved cherdano to unclear.

This post has been edited by gwnn: 2015-January-19, 17:33

[cherdano]

I don't actually know whether I am for or against it.

I would be pretty insulted if my opponent would suddenly start playing one-touch football because the score is 10-0 at the half, much more than if they just kept playing.
But then again, I have pretty bad prejudices against US sports coaches. (I know it's unfair, but I can't help it!) According to my prejudice, they think they care about teaching their team to win and to build character and leadership and blah-blah, and in fact just care about satisfying their own ego. If I let my prejudices take over, I imagine the winning coach at the sideline, cheering for his team all the way, while yelling at them every time their full court press leaked just a little bit and let the other team come close to crossing half court.
So in my prejudiced mind, this coach fully earned his suspension.

(To anyone here who may have coached youth sports in the US: Sorry! I know it's completely baseless. But then again, big time college coaches are the example of US youth sports coaches we see in public, and they deserve all the mocking they get, and much more. Ok, just one joke for every dollar they earn at the expense of the actual players. Sorry again.)

[cherdano]

 gwnn, on 2015-January-19, 16:49, said:

so: NA is only 4:3 against "running up the score" and EU is for by the same score.

Actually I was surprised that it was this close since I had the same exact impression cherdano had, that it was a US/Europe thing.

But then again, this is a social consensus among the sports community in the US. No offense to Ken, but I am not sure he would consider himself part of that Similarly, if someone suggests the alternative for the coach would have been to play with four players, that suggest they are not intimately familiar with basketball; and so maybe they haven't been exposed to that peer pressure within US sports either.

[kenberg]

 cherdano, on 2015-January-19, 17:34, said:

But then again, this is a social consensus among the sports community in the US. No offense to Ken, but I am not sure he would consider himself part of that Similarly, if someone suggests the alternative for the coach would have been to play with four players, that suggest they are not intimately familiar with basketball; and so maybe they haven't been exposed to that peer pressure within US sports either.

Certainly no offense taken. I generally stay off of the sports threads since indeed I am not part of iut. But here I think I don't have to be. I mentioned our softball team when I was a grad student, I mentioned my granddaughters experience with soccer. These experiences seem relevant. There was also the time I agreed to box with a guy I met in the gym. As I was struggling to get up, he was telling me of his successes in Golden Gloves. He might have mentioned this earlier. And I mentioned concessions at bridge.

I see it as what to do when a match is so one-sided it really should never have taken place. I'm pretty sure that my granddaughter never experienced such a complete blow-out from either side. I think the organizers have some responsibility here. i suppose anyone can have a bad year, I do live near teh Redskins. But it sounds to me like on one side you have a very determined coach and very determined girls, on the other side you have a lackadaisical approach. I had experience with this also. IN my freshman year in high school I was on the (freshman) track team. We supposedly had a coach. He showed up for practice sometimes. This was not inspiring. It is crazy to put two teams on the floor who are so totally mis-matched. It is fun for no one. I suppose the coach might have done something, but I really I do not think that the problem was solvable and I think that the organizers need to take some responsibility for this.

I have always enjoyed playing informal sports at a modest level. I just don't much enjoy watching people getting and giving concussions for money.

[Mbodell]

 cherdano, on 2015-January-19, 17:34, said:

But then again, this is a social consensus among the sports community in the US. No offense to Ken, but I am not sure he would consider himself part of that Similarly, if someone suggests the alternative for the coach would have been to play with four players, that suggest they are not intimately familiar with basketball; and so maybe they haven't been exposed to that peer pressure within US sports either.

I suggested 4 players was one mitigation, and I am quite familiar with basketball. I may not be very athletic right now, but I did play high school basketball, youth league basketball, and club level basketball. The idea of 4 players came to me mostly thinking of the classic basketball movie Hoosiers. In that movie the coach benches a star player in the game who is not willing to square up and start a multiple pass offense, and instead successfully scores on his own. The coach at the time has only 6 players, so with the benched player is down to 5. The five are run tired and one of them fouls out. As he's leaving the court everyone expects the star to come in but the coach is steadfast and goes with just the 4 players on the court. The result there is a team loss, but a loss that teaches. Again that is an Oscar winning movie about high school basketball, so perhaps not a terrible model if you think it is the score difference that matters, and not the behavior of the winning team, to how "humiliating" something is.

And about the people who were asking about if full court pressing was like psyching. No. It is more like playing a pressure style (maybe EHAA or Fantunes or agressive preempts or thin part score X). There are college programs that are built on the press. The referenced Gladwell article on the Silicon Valley team that pressed mentions Rick Pitino who is one of the top 10 college basketball coaches in the US. Another frequent top US team is the Florida Gators coached by Billy Donovan who also run a lot of full court press (Donovan was a college player coached by Pitino before becoming a coach). The full court press has some draw backs like it is hard on the team running it in terms of effort and endurance. You have to be very physically fit or have a very deep bench or both. Also, if the team beats the press they frequently have a brief advantageous situation with an uncontested transition layup or 3 on 2 or the like. But it is very hard for players, even at the top college level, to consistently beat the press when the team pressing is well trained. There are a number of other teams that utilize the press occasionally, more of as a temporary surprise, or trying to comeback late in the game. The former is often successful, the latter is only sometimes effective (usually because it isn't a surprise and the team running it isn't well practiced in it).

It is quite possible that the team that was playing always runs the press, and more over needs to practice running the press at game time. Doing so for half the game is not unreasonable to me.

[Bbradley62]

 Mbodell, on 2015-January-20, 01:59, said:

And about the people who were asking about if full court pressing was like psyching. No. It is more like playing a pressure style (maybe EHAA or Fantunes or agressive preempts or thin part score X). There are college programs that are built on the press. The referenced Gladwell article on the Silicon Valley team that pressed mentions Rick Pitino who is one of the top 10 college basketball coaches in the US. Another frequent top US team is the Florida Gators coached by Billy Donovan who also run a lot of full court press (Donovan was a college player coached by Pitino before becoming a coach). The full court press has some draw backs like it is hard on the team running it in terms of effort and endurance. You have to be very physically fit or have a very deep bench or both. Also, if the team beats the press they frequently have a brief advantageous situation with an uncontested transition layup or 3 on 2 or the like. But it is very hard for players, even at the top college level, to consistently beat the press when the team pressing is well trained. There are a number of other teams that utilize the press occasionally, more of as a temporary surprise, or trying to comeback late in the game. The former is often successful, the latter is only sometimes effective (usually because it isn't a surprise and the team running it isn't well practiced in it).

It is quite possible that the team that was playing always runs the press, and more over needs to practice running the press at game time. Doing so for half the game is not unreasonable to me.

I was even thinking that running a full-court press was similar to playing Precision in a weak ACBL club game. The pair that is doing so is very possibly practicing for playing at a higher-level event, but many club regulars are not use to seeing it and don't like it and probably don't know what to do about it.

[blackshoe]

 Bbradley62, on 2015-January-20, 11:36, said:

I was even thinking that running a full-court press was similar to playing Precision in a weak ACBL club game. The pair that is doing so is very possibly practicing for playing at a higher-level event, but many club regulars are not use to seeing it and don't like it and probably don't know what to do about it.

Other than bitch and moan to club management, you mean?

[billw55]

Full court press is not all that rare. It is a standard tactic that all teams practice, as they may need it if behind late in the game. Many teams will employ it for short stretches. Few use it all the time, partly due to stamina issues, and partly due to tendency to accumulate too many fouls.

[Fluffy]

 gwnn, on 2015-January-19, 15:26, said:

I understand that basic concept but disagree with it. I suck at ping pong but still like playing it when I get the chance. My win/loss percentage is probably in the single digits. I don't mind losing but I usually do get pissed off when my opponents are clearly letting me win or letting me back in the game by playing with their left hand or eyes closed (thankfully neither of those happened yet but you get my point) or anything like that. Of course I understand that beating someone 11-0 or 11-1 all the time is also not fun, so we usually just agree not to play. I know other people disagree with this but I don't think I'm alone in my version either.

This thread reminded me of a an amateur women's vs junior football (soccer) game where I filled in for the women's team as a goalie (I'm a guy - the opponents acquiesced before the game). The match ended in a 21-0 loss (I was not the man of the match),

So who was MotM then?

[barmar]

 gwnn, on 2015-January-19, 15:26, said:

I understand that basic concept but disagree with it. I suck at ping pong but still like playing it when I get the chance. My win/loss percentage is probably in the single digits. I don't mind losing but I usually do get pissed off when my opponents are clearly letting me win or letting me back in the game by playing with their left hand or eyes closed (thankfully neither of those happened yet but you get my point) or anything like that. Of course I understand that beating someone 11-0 or 11-1 all the time is also not fun, so we usually just agree not to play. I know other people disagree with this but I don't think I'm alone in my version either.

Imagine a contest or sweepstakes where you won a chance to play tennis (or ping pong) against a national or world champion. If the pro played the same as they would at Wimbledon, they'd probably serve ace after ace against you. The champ could easily score a total shutout, I'm sure. Neither of you would find this any fun -- you might as well be hitting the ball against a wall. To make it interesting, he'll dial down his game; he'll still win, of course, but at least you'll get a few decent volleys in.

Of course, a league game is not the same as an exhibition game from a contest. But I'll bet that in the early rounds of Wimbledon, the top seeds don't play as hard as in the late rounds, because they don't need to, and this allows them to conserve their strength (but if the opponent is doing well, they'll ramp up).

[barmar]

 billw55, on 2015-January-20, 13:12, said:

Full court press is not all that rare. It is a standard tactic that all teams practice, as they may need it if behind late in the game. Many teams will employ it for short stretches. Few use it all the time, partly due to stamina issues, and partly due to tendency to accumulate too many fouls.

That's what I was assuming -- it's a tactic you pull out when you need it, not something you would employ routinely.

I'm reminded of the "Karate Kid" movie, where the "evil coach" had his students shouting "No mercy!". Teenage, amateur sports is supposed to be friendly competition, not war. (Personal trivia: I went to high school with Ralph Macchio, who played the original Karate Kid).

[Bbradley62]

then we probably have several mutual childhood friends.

[mike777]

 barmar, on 2015-January-21, 16:32, said:

That's what I was assuming -- it's a tactic you pull out when you need it, not something you would employ routinely.

I'm reminded of the "Karate Kid" movie, where the "evil coach" had his students shouting "No mercy!". Teenage, amateur sports is supposed to be friendly competition, not war. (Personal trivia: I went to high school with Ralph Macchio, who played the original Karate Kid).

60 minutes had a segment where a science geek, was called to coach his daughter's team. He knew nothing about basketball BUT THE science told him to go full court press 100% of the time. They won a lot more than they lost.

[MrAce]

Perhaps I am way too simple minded. Imho there was only one coach to suspend (firing him would be better) and that was the coach of losing team for not doing the job even remotely that he is being paid for. He probably should not have put his team on the field at the first place. But that would require admitting the guilt about how he had done his job. He did not, instead he decided to let the kids down and had the nerves to blame other team's coach. I still think it is pretty laughable.

[blackshoe]

I don't know that the losing coach is to blame for this. Did he arrange the match, or was it someone else? I would think whoever arranged the match is the one who should get fired.

[Bbradley62]

Different schools have different priorities and different histories, etc. I'm sure there's a reason why one of the two teams plays in the highest tier and the other team plays in the 9th tier (of 11) offered by their area's high school athletic association.

The primary people who should be reprimanded are the representatives of each school (maybe athletic directors, maybe coaches) who arranged to put this game on the schedule, since it was not a league-required game. The winning coach's comment was "The game just got away from me"; that sounds like he was admitting to failing to handle the situation in a responsible manner.

[Mbodell]

 barmar, on 2015-January-21, 16:32, said:

That's what I was assuming -- it's a tactic you pull out when you need it, not something you would employ routinely.

I'm reminded of the "Karate Kid" movie, where the "evil coach" had his students shouting "No mercy!". Teenage, amateur sports is supposed to be friendly competition, not war. (Personal trivia: I went to high school with Ralph Macchio, who played the original Karate Kid).

I still think that misrepresents it. It is much more like a mini-nt in bridge. Most people don't play it. Some people play it only occasionally (pairs near me include: 1st and 2nd favorable; just 3rd; just white), many people don't play it at all (or would only open a 10-12 nt as a psych fooling partner too), and some few play it all the time. There are basketball teams that play it all the time. For these teams it isn't an occasional tactic, it is part of their system.

[gwnn]

 barmar, on 2015-January-21, 16:25, said:

Imagine a contest or sweepstakes where you won a chance to play tennis (or ping pong) against a national or world champion. If the pro played the same as they would at Wimbledon, they'd probably serve ace after ace against you. The champ could easily score a total shutout, I'm sure. Neither of you would find this any fun -- you might as well be hitting the ball against a wall. To make it interesting, he'll dial down his game; he'll still win, of course, but at least you'll get a few decent volleys in.

Of course, a league game is not the same as an exhibition game from a contest. But I'll bet that in the early rounds of Wimbledon, the top seeds don't play as hard as in the late rounds, because they don't need to, and this allows them to conserve their strength (but if the opponent is doing well, they'll ramp up).

I would simply not like to play that match against Federer. I'd refuse to participate in the sweepstakes but if I somehow won it without me knowing about my participation, I'd try to sell my winning ticket. Of course hitting a few balls with Fed would be awesome but once we started counting points it would stop being fun for me.

I'm ok with handicaps but that would be part of the agreed rules (and both players would play to their best abilities after agreeing to those rules), not something out of the stronger player's arbitrary degree of mercy. That's just humiliating/awkward to both parties I think.

[cherdano]

 MrAce, on 2015-January-21, 19:38, said:

Perhaps I am way too simple minded. Imho there was only one coach to suspend (firing him would be better) and that was the coach of losing team for not doing the job even remotely that he is being paid for. He probably should not have put his team on the field at the first place. But that would require admitting the guilt about how he had done his job. He did not, instead he decided to let the kids down and had the nerves to blame other team's coach. I still think it is pretty laughable.

Oh come on. An 11th division coach might be someone who played some pickup basketball in their past, and agreed to help out by playing a little bit of a coach in their spare time. Or maybe they have practice just once a week since his players have other interests, too, and none of them are planning to become WNBA rotation players.