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Are you serious? Missed slam

#21 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2015-April-11, 05:22

View PostTrinidad, on 2015-April-08, 13:15, said:

What kind of hand can partner have that wouldn't cue after your serious 3NT? If we are off three keycards then partner will cuebid a king.
If partner will always cuebid, what difference does it then make whether you keycard immediately or after 3NT-cue?

Rik


I think partner is allowed to look at his hand even opposite a serious slam try. If he has just 3-4 hcp in my suits, he is allowed to not cooperate and skip cuebidding kings of doubtful value. Say Kxxx xxx KJx KQx.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#22 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-April-11, 06:08

View Postcherdano, on 2015-April-11, 05:22, said:

I think partner is allowed to look at his hand even opposite a serious slam try. If he has just 3-4 hcp in my suits, he is allowed to not cooperate and skip cuebidding kings of doubtful value. Say Kxxx xxx KJx KQx.


Why would that hand bid 3? It is not even a gf hand depending on your opening style, but started gf anyway and now pouring more fuel to the fire? It is either 4 or if that shows 5 clubs than 2 NT and 4. But even though I am fan of starting with 2 with 4 and gf hands, I would start with 1 intending to invite in hearts later with 3 card supp. Same goes with Andy's example. I would start 2 with his example but not bid 3.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
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#23 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2015-April-11, 07:28

The hand is clearly worth a serious 3NT. But say partner cues 4 and we bid 4, I would respect a 4 sign off, since partner will never do that with three key cards.

Anyway, it produced a comic sequence for a pair playing in my regular team (I was guesting for another team). 1-2-2-3-4. :ph34r: :o
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#24 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2015-April-11, 09:02

View PostMrAce, on 2015-April-11, 06:08, said:

Why would that hand bid 3? It is not even a gf hand depending on your opening style, but started gf anyway and now pouring more fuel to the fire? It is either 4 or if that shows 5 clubs than 2 NT and 4. But even though I am fan of starting with 2 with 4 and gf hands, I would start with 1 intending to invite in hearts later with 3 card supp. Same goes with Andy's example. I would start 2 with his example but not bid 3.

Well, 4S is a picture bid (see the OP). 2N-then-4S for me would show a 18-19 balanced with three very good spades - you can't undo denying four-card support.
If this is not a GF, just turn the K of spades into the A.

But for me the main point is that I just don't understand the mind set of "Let's just bid 4N, it works 85% of the time". Is our slam bidding really in such a sad state that we cannot get partner to appreciate hands with three keycards more than hands with one keycard? Maybe there is no plan that works 100% of the time, but there are certainly plans that work more often than keycard directly.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#25 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2015-April-11, 09:17

View Postcherdano, on 2015-April-11, 05:22, said:

I think partner is allowed to look at his hand even opposite a serious slam try. If he has just 3-4 hcp in my suits, he is allowed to not cooperate and skip cuebidding kings of doubtful value. Say Kxxx xxx KJx KQx.

How can he have that hand? I thought 2C was game forcing opposite a modern 1H opening.
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#26 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2015-April-11, 13:11

View PostPhilKing, on 2015-April-11, 07:28, said:

The hand is clearly worth a serious 3NT. But say partner cues 4 and we bid 4, I would respect a 4 sign off, since partner will never do that with three key cards.

Yes. The only problem with 3NT is that it will sometimes get us to the five-level when we don't belong there, for example opposite AKxx xxx Kx KQJx. Does anyone play anything more sophisticated after 1-2;2, which would let opener show the nature of his hand?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#27 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-April-11, 15:00

View Postcherdano, on 2015-April-11, 09:02, said:

Well, 4S is a picture bid (see the OP). 2N-then-4S for me would show a 18-19 balanced with three very good spades - you can't undo denying four-card support.
If this is not a GF, just turn the K of spades into the A.


Ok, I am sorry for you that you tied up your hands and legs with almost never coming this picture bid and/or spared a very important auction to a 3 card fit and 18-19 hcp, and have to bid with 3 with all 4 card bids and strength or shape or controls when 3 is pretty space consuming.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of fast arrival and I understand that "picture bids" regardless of auction, means "rare hands" that needs showing rather than asking. And I like them. But imho 2 NT is under employed by many pairs by rejecting fit. Imo again, if we are going to start 2 with your example and Andy's, instead of 1, we should have better options than just having to bid 3 over 2. And with all due respect to "picture bids" and or whatever range 3 card fit bids, they should not be priority.

EDIT: I agree with P.K that pd will never reject a serious slam try with 3 keycards btw. I would not reject even a non serious slam try with 3 of them.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#28 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2015-April-12, 08:34

View PostMrAce, on 2015-April-11, 15:00, said:

Ok, I am sorry for you that you tied up your hands and legs with almost never coming this picture bid and/or spared a very important auction to a 3 card fit and 18-19 hcp, and have to bid with 3 with all 4 card bids and strength or shape or controls when 3 is pretty space consuming.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of fast arrival and I understand that "picture bids" regardless of auction, means "rare hands" that needs showing rather than asking. And I like them. But imho 2 NT is under employed by many pairs by rejecting fit. Imo again, if we are going to start 2 with your example and Andy's, instead of 1, we should have better options than just having to bid 3 over 2. And with all due respect to "picture bids" and or whatever range 3 card fit bids, they should not be priority.

Obviously you are right that it would be good to distinguish balanced and unbalanced 4-card spade raises. But I think the cost of adding some 4-card support hands into 2N is also big.

The point of 2N denying a four-card fit is to simplify the auction after 2N. Auctions are more complicated when we don't have a fit yet, so we should leave more space for them. Meanwhile, I would bid 2N with any hand that has <=3 spades, <=2 hearts, and <=5 clubs, as well as with many hands with 6 clubs. I don't think I am underemploying it!
Meanwhile, once 2N denies 4-card support, you can have auctions such as 1H-2C-2S-2N-3H-3S = do you have a little bit of help for 3N, pretty please? Or 1H-2C-2S-2N-3C-3S = I was kidding about a spade stopper, but maybe we can play a 4-3 spade fit? Etc.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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