[y66]

[ggwhiz]

 y66, on 2016-October-05, 12:12, said:

I think you just see things differently

Not recognizing this as racist just makes me believe Ken doesn't think like one.

It reminded me of Lee Trevino moving into a new house in Dallas and washing his windows. A neighbor asked him to do their house next.... and he did (just for a laugh).

[kenberg]

I realize with some embarrassment that I may have come off as overly dramatic. Nonetheless, I do need a rest from the WC. I will stick to bridge postings and playing.

Thanks to all.

[Trinidad]

Ken, though -of course- I respect your decision to take a rest from the water cooler, I do think that you are doing yourself and the water cooler an injustice.

You are the wisest, most balanced, at times wittiest and most respected poster in the water cooler. I don't know you personally, but I wish I would. Your view on life is refreshing, because it is passionate and relaxed at the same time. You can put the issues of the world in perspective.

People come in different categories.
When some people talk, I can't wait for them to stop talking.
When some other people talk, I will listen.
There are very few people whom I would ask to talk some more. You are one of those,

So please reconsider and continue your posts here.

Rik

[kenberg]

I am now officially embarrassed! I can sometimes over-react.

Since I have unintentionally made myself a bit of a topic, I will say a little.

First, i am not wise. I am serious and it is no form of false modesty. I believe I have some strengths, and I believe one of them is knowing that I am not wise. I don't mean that I am dumb, this is not "dumb and proud of it". I think Coolidge once said "It is a very good ting for the country to be led by someone who knows he is not a great man". I get that.

But now let me muse a bit, from my viewpoint, about how I got so upset. It may apply beyond just me.
From Google I see Alicia Machado is from Venezuela. I had gathered she spoke Spanish, but beyond that I didn't know. And I wasn't interested. I had not regarded people from Venezuela as being of a different race. Maybe they are. I don't really care about that either. But mostly I don't care about the whole thing. I gather that twenty years ago Alicia Machado and Donald Trump got into a spat and DT said some stupid things. No surprise there.

I don't rank professions. If a woman is working hard in a hotel, hopefully getting some tips to supplement her pay, and raising her kids, hopefully with the help of a husband, she has my admiration. A while back I had a request and the person had to direct me to her fellow worker who spoke better English, but except for communication issues I have no interest in whether she has an accent. At times I consider practicing my largely forgotten Spanish on the woman behind the cash register at a cafeteria I sometimes eat at, but I figure she is busy.

At any rate, inter-connecting Venezuela, having an accent, and working in a hotel is a stretch for me. I can see it, I guess, when it is pointed out to me but it's a stretch.

So what's the point? I got upset why? And how might it apply more generally? There are times I feel I cannot speak without some self-appointed moralist ramming the words down my throat. Or, as Trump might say, ramming them somewhere, I don't know. This can make conversation difficult, and I think that we, as a society, are reaping the consequences of that.

[barmar]

 kenberg, on 2016-October-06, 06:52, said:

From Google I see Alicia Machado is from Venezuela. I had gathered she spoke Spanish, but beyond that I didn't know. And I wasn't interested. I had not regarded people from Venezuela as being of a different race. Maybe they are.

The term "racist" has become generalized. It's not just about true "races" (if such a thing even exists -- most geneticists say they don't), but also includes generalizing and discrimination based on ethnicity. So Trump's call to ban Muslims from immigration is considered racist. Perhaps that's why you don't see comments like that as racist, you're using an obsolete definition.

It might be better if there were a different term, like "ethnicist", but there isn't.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2016-October-06, 06:52, said:

I am now officially embarrassed! I can sometimes over-react.

Since I have unintentionally made myself a bit of a topic, I will say a little.

First, i am not wise. I am serious and it is no form of false modesty. I believe I have some strengths, and I believe one of them is knowing that I am not wise. I don't mean that I am dumb, this is not "dumb and proud of it". I think Coolidge once said "It is a very good ting for the country to be led by someone who knows he is not a great man". I get that.

But now let me muse a bit, from my viewpoint, about how I got so upset. It may apply beyond just me.
From Google I see Alicia Machado is from Venezuela. I had gathered she spoke Spanish, but beyond that I didn't know. And I wasn't interested. I had not regarded people from Venezuela as being of a different race. Maybe they are. I don't really care about that either. But mostly I don't care about the whole thing. I gather that twenty years ago Alicia Machado and Donald Trump got into a spat and DT said some stupid things. No surprise there.

I don't rank professions. If a woman is working hard in a hotel, hopefully getting some tips to supplement her pay, and raising her kids, hopefully with the help of a husband, she has my admiration. A while back I had a request and the person had to direct me to her fellow worker who spoke better English, but except for communication issues I have no interest in whether she has an accent. At times I consider practicing my largely forgotten Spanish on the woman behind the cash register at a cafeteria I sometimes eat at, but I figure she is busy.

At any rate, inter-connecting Venezuela, having an accent, and working in a hotel is a stretch for me. I can see it, I guess, when it is pointed out to me but it's a stretch.

So what's the point? I got upset why? And how might it apply more generally? There are times I feel I cannot speak without some self-appointed moralist ramming the words down my throat. Or, as Trump might say, ramming them somewhere, I don't know. This can make conversation difficult, and I think that we, as a society, are reaping the consequences of that.

Ken, I think part of the problem is that people are not using the correct term to describe Trump. We generalize and say he is racist when race is only one part of his bias. Trump is a narcissistic elitist, meaning he views anyone who is not at his same level as meaningless, a bug, not worth his time. There is a lot of similarity between Trump's narcissism and a sociopath's lack of empathy.

Perhaps we should say he displays elitist bias instead of saying more crudely he is racist but more people understand the negative connotations of racist, and there is so little positive about Trump that the insult seems to fit better.

[Winstonm]

Another condemnation is in:

Quote

On Thursday, Clinton’s endeavors got a boost ― though, apparently, through no effort of her own. Thirty Republicans who served in Congress signed a letter saying they couldn’t vote for Trump in the general election.

“In nominating Donald Trump, the Republican Party has asked the people of the United States to entrust their future to a man who insults women, mocks the handicapped, urges that dissent be met with violence, seeks to impose religious tests for entry into the United States, and applies a de facto ethnicity test to judges,” the letter reads. “He offends our allies and praises dictators. His public statements are peppered with lies. He belittles our heroes and insults the parents of men who have died serving our country. Every day brings a fresh revelation that highlights the unacceptable danger in electing him to lead our nation.”

[kenberg]

 barmar, on 2016-October-06, 08:55, said:

The term "racist" has become generalized. It's not just about true "races" (if such a thing even exists -- most geneticists say they don't), but also includes generalizing and discrimination based on ethnicity. So Trump's call to ban Muslims from immigration is considered racist. Perhaps that's why you don't see comments like that as racist, you're using an obsolete definition.

It might be better if there were a different term, like "ethnicist", but there isn't.

In short, we need new words to describe Trump! Even disabling the automated censor on BBO won't solve the problem.

Joking aside, I will press my point a bit. When a person recommends that white people should go out on election day to monitor the polls in the districts of "you know what I mean" this is overt racism and more. It really suggests voter intimidation. Here is from the Post

Quote

For a second night in a row, Donald Trump told a vastly white audience of supporters on Saturday that they should go to neighborhoods other than their own on Election Day and "watch." Trump didn't elaborate on what they should watch for, telling his crowd in this rural Pennsylvania town that he didn't want to lose the election "because of you know what I'm talking about."

I think it is not too much to ask every candidate for the Senate and every candidate for the House to explicitly say whether s/he supports or does not support this recommendation. Ask the current Senators and Representatives. Ask the party leaders. Until now, I would have said that this is beyond belief even for Trump. It needs to be explicitly, utterly, universally rejected. We cannot afford any ambiguity here at all.


Some of these other things are a distraction. I have heard that Rosie O'Donnell called Trump an Orange Body Part. It's OK, let them go at it, deal me out. But also let's quickly and unequivocally reject the idea of roving groups of Trump supporters going into black neighborhoods to "watch". This is one hell of a step backward, fifty years. This cannot be allowed to stand.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2016-October-06, 13:33, said:

I think it is not too much to ask every candidate for the Senate and every candidate for the House to explicitly say whether s/he supports or does not support this recommendation. Ask the current Senators and Representatives. Ask the party leaders. Until now, I would have said that this is beyond belief even for Trump. It needs to be explicitly, utterly, universally rejected. We cannot afford any ambiguity here at all.


Some of these other things are a distraction. I have heard that Rosie O'Donnell called Trump an Orange Body Part. It's OK, let them go at it, deal me out. But also let's quickly and unequivocally reject the idea of roving groups of Trump supporters going into black neighborhoods to "watch". This is one hell of a step backward, fifty years. This cannot be allowed to stand.

I agree, but I also think people like this should be driven from office for placing party above country:

Quote

WASHINGTON ― Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) is campaigning with Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump in Wisconsin on Saturday, though it kind of seems he didn’t want you to know that.

Ryan’s campaign released a media advisory Thursday titled, “Paul Ryan to Attend Annual Fall Fest in Walworth County.” It’s an event in Ryan’s home state, and the advisory lists lots of state officials attending.

Oh, and three paragraphs in, it mentions Trump will be there too.

[nige1]

 kenberg, on 2016-October-05, 11:34, said:

This has taken a turn that I really do not like. This post contains no position and no argument for or against anything, it is simply an expression of dismay. I wish everyone well, but I need some time off from posting.

Please reconsider, Ken You keep the water cool

[nige1]

What a disgusting choice. If Gorsuch stood for president, he'd win a public debate. He'd win the election in a landslide. Unfortunately he's not an American citizen. And he's not human. And he's not alive. He's a dead parrot

[kenberg]

 nige1, on 2016-October-06, 14:10, said:

Please reconsider, Ken You keep the water cool

Oh I probably am still around. Thanks.

But I have been thinking we are desperately n need of a topic other than the American election. I mentioned that we went to the beach. Bit we are back now.

[barmar]

 Winstonm, on 2016-October-06, 09:50, said:

Ken, I think part of the problem is that people are not using the correct term to describe Trump. We generalize and say he is racist when race is only one part of his bias. Trump is a narcissistic elitist, meaning he views anyone who is not at his same level as meaningless, a bug, not worth his time. There is a lot of similarity between Trump's narcissism and a sociopath's lack of empathy.

Perhaps we should say he displays elitist bias instead of saying more crudely he is racist but more people understand the negative connotations of racist, and there is so little positive about Trump that the insult seems to fit better.

Trump has many faults. He's both elitist and racist.

Alicia Machado is a TV star. Maybe not at the same level of fame as Trump, but I'll bet she's considered an A-lister within the Latin-American community. Trump didn't call her "Miss Housekeeping" because she's a commoner, he knows she's famous. And if he were just putting her down because she's not at his level, why would he use a term that's so obviously meant to generalize her as a Latina? He could have just called her something like "that nobody". It's clearly an allusion to her ethnic group, which is what makes it a racist comment.

Maybe Trump isn't actually racist in his own views, but he couches his comments in racist terms because that's what his supporters understand. Should we really have to distinguish what he thinks from what he says?

[Al_U_Card]

Try doing a psych profile of past presidents...Trump is middle of the road as far as Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy and Truman are concerned. As for crookedness, Bush I and II, Nixon... Why the fuss? If you can remember the 60's, we were on the brink then and have we learned anything from that? Ya get what ya deserve.

[Trinidad]

FWIW, I don't believe that Trump is a real racist or "ethnicity-ist". I don't think he gives a BEEP.

I believe Trump is a media-ist and a populist. He knows that his potential voters are racist, so he will say racist things that his electorate thinks are funny or need to be said.

If the majority of the US population were tree-huggers. Trump would hug several trees per day and blame "Corporate America" for global warming, and the high price of herbal tea.

Rik

[kenberg]

 Trinidad, on 2016-October-07, 01:53, said:

FWIW, I don't believe that Trump is a real racist or "ethnicity-ist". I don't think he gives a BEEP.

I believe Trump is a media-ist and a populist. He knows that his potential voters are racist, so he will say racist things that his electorate thinks are funny or need to be said.

If the majority of the US population were tree-huggers. Trump would hug several trees per day and blame "Corporate America" for global warming, and the high price of herbal tea.

Rik

Yes, this is my view. If he is after votes, he goes where he hopes they are. All, or almost all, politicians do this but some are grosser than others in their approach. And when he gets worked up and warts to get into "So's your mother" insults he grabs the tools at hand, whatever they are, absolutely whatever. The man is so far beneath any even minimal standard of who we want in the presidency that trying to rank, list or even describe his failings leaves us sputtering in frustration. I really hope we do much better than squeaking out a win. A win is a win, but in this case I want the country to speak clearly on the total unacceptability of such a person.

[alok c]

I'm not a U.S citizen but watching Trump,imho he is not that dumb & bufoonish as he is posturing.He is extremely sly & result driven person.Who would have given two hoots for him if he has not positioned himself in the limelight by his strategy of obnoxious utterences & loutish behaviour? Like it or not he is now a central figure in american political arena.As he is a result driven person without any political philosophy, he will go to any extent to garner votes by exploiting sentiments of his target vote blocks.A person who has heavy overseas investments atleast has some understanding of international politics but he postures otherwise. He is no idiot but an extremely cunning man.

[barmar]

 Trinidad, on 2016-October-07, 01:53, said:

FWIW, I don't believe that Trump is a real racist or "ethnicity-ist". I don't think he gives a BEEP.

I believe Trump is a media-ist and a populist. He knows that his potential voters are racist, so he will say racist things that his electorate thinks are funny or need to be said.

True, although many of his horrid comments came long before he got into the race. For instance, his comments about Machado's weight problems were from 20 years ago, when she gained 12 pounds during her reign as Miss Universe. While I think most people probably shared his views that a beauty queen shouldn't be overweight, calling someone with an acknowledged eating disorder "Miss Piggy" is just childish, like calling someone with glasses "Four-Eyes".

[kenberg]

 alok c, on 2016-October-07, 08:11, said:

I'm not a U.S citizen but watching Trump,imho he is not that dumb & bufoonish as he is posturing.He is extremely sly & result driven person.Who would have given two hoots for him if he has not positioned himself in the limelight by his strategy of obnoxious utterences & loutish behaviour? Like it or not he is now a central figure in american political arena.As he is a result driven person without any political philosophy, he will go to any extent to garner votes by exploiting sentiments of his target vote blocks.A person who has heavy overseas investments at least has some understanding of international politics but he postures otherwise. He is no idiot but an extremely cunning man.

I sort of agree. He is a master of publicity. He has made the campaign all about him. But all of that only goes so far.
He is a cunning X, where for X you can choose from a long list of words that the censor would not allow.
Trump admires Putin for his strength. He has a point, of sorts. But I don't plan to cast a write in ballot for Vladimir.

Cunning is useful. We just need to recognize it for what it is.

Added: Looking this over, I may be giving the impression that I think his outrageous comments are part of his cunning. In fact I doubt that very much. I think that they are part of his personality, and I think that that art of his personality has worked for him on the past, but the game is up and a really cunning person would have switched gears by now.

That being said, I suppose it is possible we will see the long predicted "new" Donald on display Sunday. I doubt it, but maybe. If we do, I would be very disappointed in my fellow Americans if they fell for it. We have seen enough, enough times two. Or times five.