BBO Discussion Forums: Careless or beyond? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Careless or beyond? A contested claim

#1 User is offline   Pig Trader 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 71
  • Joined: 2009-August-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Derbyshire, England

Posted 2015-November-13, 10:11



This was from the A Final of the Pairs at last weekend's EBU Seniors Congress. West is in 4 and South is on lead. West says "Dummy is high".

Dummy will ruff the heart return. Do we allow declarer to unblock K on Q next? The Strength of Field is about 60%, for those familiar with the NGS.

I thought this was close but favoured one solution over the other. Both my colleagues thought as I did, one of whom thought it also worth posting, so how think the IBLF panel? :rolleyes:
Barrie Partridge, England
0

#2 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,404
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2015-November-13, 10:13

I think it is pretty clear declarer missed the blocking.
2

#3 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2015-November-13, 10:30

 Fluffy, on 2015-November-13, 10:13, said:

I think it is pretty clear declarer missed the blocking.


Except that "dummy is high" means you will take the remaining tricks in the dummy. I think I will be chicken and give a weighted score.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#4 User is offline   jnichols 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 127
  • Joined: 2006-May-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Carmel, IN, USA

Posted 2015-November-13, 10:39

 Vampyr, on 2015-November-13, 10:30, said:

Except that "dummy is high" means you will take the remaining tricks in the dummy. I think I will be chicken and give a weighted score.

Are weighted scores permitted when ruling on a claim? I was thinking you must decide on a specific number of tricks.

I'm in the ACBL so we haven't been using weighted scores. Starts January 1!


John S. Nichols - Director & Webmaster
Indianapolis Bridge Center
0

#5 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,693
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2015-November-13, 10:53

My understanding is that a claim ruling is not an adjusted score (Law 12), so you can't give a weighted score.

"Dummy is high" is not a true statement when declarer has the top diamond in his hand. It would be careless to unblock, and he didn't mention doing so, so he loses the last two tricks. Law 70.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#6 User is offline   WellSpyder 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,627
  • Joined: 2009-November-30
  • Location:Oxfordshire, England

Posted 2015-November-13, 11:09

 blackshoe, on 2015-November-13, 10:53, said:

It would be careless to unblock,

It would be even more careless NOT to unblock! :) But I agree with your ruling....
0

#7 User is offline   Pig Trader 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 71
  • Joined: 2009-August-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Derbyshire, England

Posted 2015-November-13, 16:18

No, you can't weight a claim ruling but well done the ACBL for seeing The Light! :rolleyes:
Barrie Partridge, England
1

#8 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,162
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2015-November-13, 18:09

I think if he played it out he would make. However, from his claim statement (dummy high) it's pretty clear he hasn't thought this thru, so down he goes. imo.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,214
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2015-November-13, 19:22

I think as soon as the top heart hits the table it would be beyond careless/inferior at the level the board was played to do anything other than unblock. I would rule differently with beginners.
0

#10 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2015-November-14, 04:01

I don't think anyone who has failed to mention a blockage can be assumed to notice it in time and recover from it. The failure to mention it is evidence of a mental block in noticing it.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
3

#11 User is offline   ggwhiz 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Joined: 2008-June-23
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-November-14, 08:49

As soon as you challenge the claim west will notice the blockage but that's too late imo. Given the incomplete statement of claim, I wouldn't give a split score even if I could. down 2
When a deaf person goes to court is it still called a hearing?
What is baby oil made of?
0

#12 User is offline   axman 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 882
  • Joined: 2009-July-29
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-November-14, 09:25

 Fluffy, on 2015-November-13, 10:13, said:

I think it is pretty clear declarer missed the blocking.


I would like to put a different view upon it. The Unblocking was not included in the clarification and it can be said that a ruling turns on that fact, plus, if it is determined as fact that the clarification was not interrupted by an opponent.
1

#13 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2015-November-14, 09:40

 axman, on 2015-November-14, 09:25, said:

I would like to put a different view upon it. The Unblocking was not included in the clarification and it can be said that a ruling turns on that fact, plus, if it is determined as fact that the clarification was not interrupted by an opponent.

I don't think I understand what you are trying to say here.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#14 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2015-November-14, 10:57

 axman, on 2015-November-14, 09:25, said:

I would like to put a different view upon it. The Unblocking was not included in the clarification and it can be said that a ruling turns on that fact, plus, if it is determined as fact that the clarification was not interrupted by an opponent.

 gordontd, on 2015-November-14, 09:40, said:

I don't think I understand what you are trying to say here.

I think what he says is that if an opponent interrupted the clarification which otherwise might have included mentioning the blockage then not mentioning the blockage shall not be held against the claimer. And I agree with this.
1

#15 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2015-November-14, 13:37

 pran, on 2015-November-14, 10:57, said:

I think what he says is that if an opponent interrupted the clarification which otherwise might have included mentioning the blockage then not mentioning the blockage shall not be held against the claimer. And I agree with this.

Sure, if we are moving on to discussing some other hypothetical case.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
1

#16 User is offline   Pig Trader 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 71
  • Joined: 2009-August-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Derbyshire, England

Posted 2015-November-14, 18:10

" .... if it is determined as fact that the clarification was not interrupted by an opponent .... "

While always something to be wary of, it wasn't an issue here. I'd have said if it was. :rolleyes:
Barrie Partridge, England
0

#17 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2015-November-15, 09:00

 Pig Trader, on 2015-November-13, 16:18, said:

No, you can't weight a claim ruling but well done the ACBL for seeing The Light! :rolleyes:

Sounds like misery loves company; you want us to suffer weighted rulings too, and it seems we will get to do that soon.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#18 User is offline   Trinidad 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,531
  • Joined: 2005-October-09
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2015-November-15, 10:00

I am with the "if declarer would have been aware, he would have mentioned it. So he wasn't aware." - folks.

And just in case these IDWHVBAHWHMISHWA folks were wrong, this will be the last time that declarer will fail to mention what he is "obviously aware of".

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
0

#19 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,214
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2015-November-15, 10:18

The actual effect of telling a good player that he is deemed to play like a moron is that he won't claim again and the game will slow down even further.
1

#20 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2015-November-15, 10:39

 Cyberyeti, on 2015-November-15, 10:18, said:

The actual effect of telling a good player that he is deemed to play like a moron is that he won't claim again and the game will slow down even further.

Agree totally with this post, since you stated a valid general point. However in specific to this case, it should tell that "good player" to clean up his claims by mentioning the unblock which is so obvious to him.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
1

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

2 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users