[Shugart23]

ok, I have another technical rules question where I actually got into a mild argument with the director on. Partner and I are into a slam search with low level bid/ask sequences, all of which are alerted...to a point.....I bid 3S asking what round control partner had of Spades)..The 3S bid was alerted ....Responder bid 4C which was NOT alerted, but meant she had 3rd round control of Clubs......After the auction was over, we announced that we had delayed alerts (the 4C bid)...Opponent got upset that we didn't alert the unnatural call at the time. We explained the rule of 'delayed alerts above the 3NT level...Director came over and said that this is not fair because Opponent might want the opportunity to Double the artificial bid. I replied, "I don't write the ACBL rules, I just follow them"........So...was the 4C bid alertable when it was made?

I meant her 4C response meant she had third round control of Spades...sorry

[pran]

Shugart23, on 2016-June-09, 05:14, said:

ok, I have another technical rules question where I actually got into a mild argument with the director on. Partner and I are into a slam search with low level bid/ask sequences, all of which are alerted...to a point.....I bid 3S asking what round control partner had of Spades)..The 3S bid was alerted ....Responder bid 4C which was NOT alerted, but meant she had 3rd round control of Clubs......After the auction was over, we announced that we had delayed alerts (the 4C bid)...Opponent got upset that we didn't alert the unnatural call at the time. We explained the rule of 'delayed alerts above the 3NT level...Director came over and said that this is not fair because Opponent might want the opportunity to Double the artificial bid. I replied, "I don't write the ACBL rules, I just follow them"........So...was the 4C bid alertable when it was made?

This is of course a matter of regulation and I am not particularly familiar with ACBL. However, I understand from your post that they are very similar to our Norwegian regulation: Calls above 3NT shall not be alerted except conventional calls up to but not including opener's rebid. If screens are used then conventional calls shall be alerted all the way.

As the 3S bid was alerted the chances are high that the 4C bid is also conventional, and given the ACBL regulation as I understand your post I say that you were on safe ground and that the Director was wrong here.

The onus was on your opponents to ask about the alerted 3S bid if they suspected they might need the information. It would have been perfectly OK to ask about the alerted 3S bid also following the 4C bid.

Had they asked they would have learned that (and how) the 4C bid was conventional, so failing to ask leaves them no redress for their own possible misunderstanding of the 4C bid.

Shugart23, on 2016-June-09, 05:14, said:

I meant her 4C response meant she had third round control of Spades...sorry

I did wonder.

[mycroft]

From the Alert Procedures (mildly edited, I'll explain why):

Quote

Delayed Alerts (or Post-Alerts)
Once the auction has progressed to the point that the opening bidder has had the opportunity to make a second call, conventional [bids] at the four level or higher are not Alerted until the auction is over.
These delayed Alerts are required to be made by the declaring side before the opening lead. The defenders are required to Alert declarer after the opening lead but before declarer makes a play from dummy (Alerting before the lead is turned face-up and the dummy is spread is best).

The Alert *Chart* says Alertable *bids*, where the Alert Procedure says Alertable *calls*. I checked with my local National TD, and he said that bids is correct (so Alertable passes, doubles or redoubles are always immediate Alerts). I hit this case when a Non-Lead-Directing double of 4♣ wasn't Alerted (as we thought it shouldn't be until the opening lead, see above), and I went and looked for clarification.

So, if your club is following ACBL guidelines for Alerting (a recommendation but not a requirement of the ACBL), then you are correct. Yes, occasionally it will be an issue, but it is believed that Alerts at this level (in your case, actually, *when the Alerts stop* at this level) aid the Alerting side more than the opponents on balance. The TD is right, it may not be *fair*, but you are also right that it is correct, and Alerting would be wrong (and also not fair to the opponents).

Having played Precision with Asking Bids, and running into exactly your case more than once, I don't know of a "best" answer, so like you, I just follow the rules. Of course, I just follow the rules almost always, because, well, nickname.

[blackshoe]

mycroft, on 2016-June-09, 10:28, said:

The Alert *Chart* says Alertable *bids*, where the Alert Procedure says Alertable *calls*. I checked with my local National TD, and he said that bids is correct (so Alertable passes, doubles or redoubles are always immediate Alerts).

This question comes up from time to time. About a month ago, it came up on BridgeWinners, and I wrote Dan Plato about it. He consulted with Sol Weinstein, and told me that the Procedure is wrong, the Chart is correct, that Sol (and others) are working on revising the alert regulations, and that he would try to get the Procedure posted on the website corrected ASAP. Apparently the correction has fallen through the cracks.

[pran]

blackshoe, on 2016-June-09, 16:37, said:

This question comes up from time to time. About a month ago, it came up on BridgeWinners, and I wrote Dan Plato about it. He consulted with Sol Weinstein, and told me that the Procedure is wrong, the Chart is correct, that Sol (and others) are working on revising the alert regulations, and that he would try to get the Procedure posted on the website corrected ASAP. Apparently the correction has fallen through the cracks.

I feel a bit puzzled (OK, it is none of my business as I am outside ACBL).
Does this mean that within ACBL artificial pass, double and redouble must be alerted even if the last previous bid was 3NT or higher, while artificial bids above 3NT are only subject to delayed alerts?

(This has of course no bearing on the question raised by OP as the artificial call there was indeed a bid.)

[Shugart23]

pran, on 2016-June-10, 01:59, said:

I feel a bit puzzled (OK, it is none of my business as I am outside ACBL).
Does this mean that within ACBL artificial pass, double and redouble must be alerted even if the last previous bid was 3NT or higher, while artificial bids above 3NT are only subject to delayed alerts?

(This has of course no bearing on the question raised by OP as the artificial call there was indeed a bid.)

I had the same question as you, and read it the same way.....crazy...partner and I do indeed use artificial passes, doubles and redoubles as steps in our relay's when opponents interfere and do alert them under 3NT but up to now, don't alert them above 3NT....not sure why ACBL would make this distinction ands what they think this distinction ( a call vs a bid) accomplishes

[barmar]

Shugart23, on 2016-June-10, 04:47, said:

I had the same question as you, and read it the same way.....crazy...partner and I do indeed use artificial passes, doubles and redoubles as steps in our relay's when opponents interfere and do alert them under 3NT but up to now, don't alert them above 3NT....not sure why ACBL would make this distinction ands what they think this distinction ( a call vs a bid) accomplishes

If someone doubles you it's important to know right away whether it's penalty or artificial, so you know whether to run. If it's artificial, it's less likely to be left in.

Also, if they're making artificial doubles, redoubles, and passes, it means the opponents are still in the auction, so they need to know what the calls mean. The rule for bids seems to be based on the more common case that they're bidding unopposed at the game level and above.

[Vampyr]

pran, on 2016-June-10, 01:59, said:

I feel a bit puzzled (OK, it is none of my business as I am outside ACBL).
Does this mean that within ACBL artificial pass, double and redouble must be alerted even if the last previous bid was 3NT or higher, while artificial bids above 3NT are only subject to delayed alerts?

(This has of course no bearing on the question raised by OP as the artificial call there was indeed a bid.)

Does this seem strange? EU regulations are similar, except that there are no delayed alerts.

[mycroft]

Well, a big one is the auction I alluded to earlier.

---

Your auctions, where there are a bunch of bids, and you're the only side in the auction, the only thing they're going to care about is "is this artificial so I can double or sac in it"? Also, usually it's obvious if there's a chance you're going to play in it (we've agreed spades, and this is the third round of asks, we're never *stopping* in 4♣, even if it is natural)

In my auction, not so much, and frankly NLD doubles are uncommon enough that "well, you just have to ask" isn't A Thing (my LHO has 30+ years of experience, is a solid regional A player, thousands of masterpoints, and her response when she found out what the double meant - "don't lead clubs" - was "That's a really good idea, I've never heard of that before.")

Even in your auctions, XX = a step vs XX = "suggestion to partner" vs XX = "neutral in ask, but nothing in this suit, pd" (similarly double and pass) are not exactly things people playing standard are going to even realize is up for debate.

[pran]

Vampyr, on 2016-June-10, 09:36, said:

Does this seem strange? EU regulations are similar, except that there are no delayed alerts.

Do they distinguish between bids and other calls in the question of alerting above 3NT?

[Vampyr]

pran, on 2016-June-10, 10:49, said:

Do they distinguish between bids and other calls in the question of alerting above 3NT?

Yes.

[blackshoe]

pran, on 2016-June-10, 01:59, said:

I feel a bit puzzled (OK, it is none of my business as I am outside ACBL).
Does this mean that within ACBL artificial pass, double and redouble must be alerted even if the last previous bid was 3NT or higher, while artificial bids above 3NT are only subject to delayed alerts?

(This has of course no bearing on the question raised by OP as the artificial call there was indeed a bid.)

Bids which are above three notrump and at or after opener's second turn to call require a delayed alert. Other calls (pass, double, redouble) when the auction has reached that point and which require an alert per the rules require an immediate alert.