[MrAce]

rhm, on 2016-October-14, 05:59, said:

Changing the West hand slightly

---

As East I would want to be in a diamond game opposite such meager values, though of course it is anything but cold. .
East does not just have 18 HCP. He does have on top a 6421 distribution with a fit for partner and West bidding 4♦ says he can not be totally broke.

Rainer Herrmann

West is very unlikely to have the hand you suggest instead of holding Jxx xx Jxxxx xxx.
With the hand you suggest, as West, I would be thrilled to stay in defense vs 3♠ considering that I am on lead. That is why I asked the scoring. I can even double 3♠ at MP if it meant penalty, but I don't think it is.

[Caitlynne]

If you are going to start with a Double over 1C, planning to show a strong hand with long hearts (a reasonable decision that is not without risk - partner might jump to 4S on you!), then finish the plan but jumping to 2H. 1H does NOT show a strong hand with a 6 card suit; it suggests 5. After a jump to 2H, partner would/should be very impressed by his Kx in hearts.

[rhm]

alok c, on 2016-October-13, 07:17, said:

What 2♥ by East would have shown instead of 1♥?After ♦ bidding by West,East can reasonably expect for 4♥ play even with doubleton ♥honours with West.

MrAce, on 2016-October-13, 08:07, said:

2♥ would set the trump.

Obviously a matter of agreement. I am a fan of ELC, but for me 2♥ would show the actual East hand even without ELC.
Setting hearts I would have to jump to 3♥
With even stronger hands you cuebid opponents suit first.
I do not know what people do with say solid opening bid values and 4♠-5♥-2♦-2♣ and dispersed honors.
I would certainly double and correct a reply of 1♦ to 1♥

Rainer Herrmann

[aguahombre]

rhm, on 2016-October-14, 06:45, said:

Obviously a matter of agreement. I am a fan of ELC, but for me 2♥ would show the actual East hand even without ELC.
Setting hearts I would have to jump to 3♥
With even stronger hands you cuebid opponents suit first.
I do not know what people do with say solid opening bid values and 4♠-5♥-2♦-2♣ and dispersed honors.
I would certainly double and correct a reply of 1♦ to 1♥

Rainer Herrmann

Respectfully disagree with everything here, and commend East for not over-emphasizing his nice-but-mediocre six card heart suit.
While it is true that the 1♥ rebid did not show more than 5 hearts, it is not true that it denied a less than robust sixbagger willing to play in some other strain.

Agree with Timo that West should have been able to solve everything over righty's 3♠ bid. We just disagree on how. I believe 4♥ would be a perfect choice-of-games bid with the inferences from the earlier rounds. He likes Double, which would confuse my alleged mind.

[MrAce]

aguahombre, on 2016-October-14, 08:31, said:

Respectfully disagree with everything here, and commend East for not over-emphasizing his nice-but-mediocre six card heart suit.
While it is true that the 1♥ rebid did not show more than 5 hearts, it is not true that it denied a less than robust sixbagger willing to play in some other strain.

Agree with Timo that West should have been able to solve everything over righty's 3♠ bid. We just disagree on how. I believe 4♥ would be a perfect choice-of-games bid with the inferences from the earlier rounds. He likes Double, which would confuse my alleged mind.

Actually, I wrote in BW that my choice was double of 3♠ here but the comments made by 2 posters there persuaded me that DBL is not such a great idea.
I am not really keen on what to bid over 3♠. I believe 4♦ did not cut it. Pass would not occur to me.
4♥ or 4♣ makes more sense to me, considering that we bid only 1♦ and then passed over 1♠, we have a big hand when pd made the 3rd round bid by himself.
Bidding 2♥ with the actual hand, after starting DBL, would only occur to me if we played ELC.
Rainer has a point that it is a matter of agreement though. If 2♥ means "I can play vs xx or stiff honor" then 2♥ is not that bad.
But just like you, I do not think his suggested method is superior. Having to double jump just to say he has solid hearts is awful imo. My 2♥, setting trumps style is still non forcing. I bid 3♥ with giants pretty much equal to opening 2♣ and jumping.

[rhm]

MrAce, on 2016-October-14, 09:54, said:

Actually, I wrote in BW that my choice was double of 3♠ here but the comments made by 2 posters there persuaded me that DBL is not such a great idea.
I am not really keen on what to bid over 3♠. I believe 4♦ did not cut it. Pass would not occur to me.
4♥ or 4♣ makes more sense to me, considering that we bid only 1♦ and then passed over 1♠, we have a big hand when pd made the 3rd round bid by himself.
Bidding 2♥ with the actual hand, after starting DBL, would only occur to me if we played ELC.
Rainer has a point that it is a matter of agreement though. If 2♥ means "I can play vs xx or stiff honor" then 2♥ is not that bad.
But just like you, I do not think his suggested method is superior. Having to double jump just to say he has solid hearts is awful imo. My 2♥, setting trumps style is still non forcing. I bid 3♥ with giants pretty much equal to opening 2♣ and jumping.

I believe that DBL of 3♠ (by West) is the modern (original Italian) tendency in expert bridge.
It makes sense to me.
There is a book "The Power of Positive Bidding (Bidding Secrets of the Italian Champions)", which gives an introduction into this concept
They call it Power Double

Rainer Herrmann

[PhilG007]

Fluffy, on 2016-October-13, 06:16, said:

---

5♦ made so it was not a disaster, but I think we should had found the major fit.

IMHO the East hand is perfect for the unusual 2NT overcall,in this case showing hearts and the
other minor suit. West would then be in a better position to see his partner's 'shape' and the heart fit
would be found.

[wank]

PhilG007, on 2016-October-14, 12:31, said:

IMHO the East hand is perfect for the unusual 2NT overcall,in this case showing hearts and the
other minor suit. West would then be in a better position to see his partner's 'shape' and the heart fit
would be found.

not one of your more believable efforts i'm afraid

[GrahamJson]

MrAce, on 2016-October-14, 05:56, said:

You are not convinced that W should bid 4♥ rather than 4♦.
But you want East, to bid forever.
Look at the actions he took so far. DBL and then bid a new suit, which is pretty much 18+, seeing his pd still pass he then bid 3♦.

I am sure you all would blame E for keep on bidding after he already told his story if he bid 4♥ and found W with

Jxx
xx
Jxxxx
xxx


losing 1♦+2♦ruff+1♠+2♥. -800 or -300 out of nowhere instead of +130 !! ATB comments would be like " Did E know there are also green cards in the box?"

---

Cheers!

Hmm. East has already supported diamonds after west has made a free bid in the suit. So if he deems it worth going on it seems reasonable to bid 4H rather than 5D, giving his partner the choice to pass, with the hand he had, or bid 5D with short hearts and longer diamonds. Putting it another way; why bid 5D cutting out the option of playing in 4H when you can bid 4H, keeping both options open. Whether east should go on, rather than pass, is another question. I think he should, as west must have some values, albeit small ones, to justify his free bid. In fact his actual hand looks exactly like what might be expected.

[MrAce]

GrahamJson, on 2016-October-14, 14:48, said:

Hmm. East has already supported diamonds after west has made a free bid in the suit. So if he deems it worth going on it seems reasonable to bid 4H rather than 5D, giving his partner the choice to pass, with the hand he had, or bid 5D with short hearts and longer diamonds. Putting it another way; why bid 5D cutting out the option of playing in 4H when you can bid 4H, keeping both options open. Whether east should go on, rather than pass, is another question. I think he should, as west must have some values, albeit small ones, to justify his free bid. In fact his actual hand looks exactly like what might be expected.

We can debate after you learn the meaning of free bid. 1♦ response to DBL is not one of them.

[gane32000]

Bid 3!S.

[rhm]

MrAce, on 2016-October-14, 15:27, said:

We can debate after you learn the meaning of free bid. 1♦ response to DBL is not one of them.

1♦ is of course not a free bid but 4♦ is.
I would not make that bid on Jxx xx Jxxxx xxx, which in my opinion is just too weak for such a bid.
4♥ is a better bid by East than 5♦.

Rainer Herrmann

[GrahamJson]

Thank goodness at least Rainer understands me. East has already shown diamond support by bidding 3D and west has shown meagre values by bidding 4D when he could have passed. Hence it is better, if bidding on, to bid 4H, giving the choice between 4H and 5D.

[MrAce]

rhm, on 2016-October-15, 02:07, said:

1♦ is of course not a free bid but 4♦ is.
I would not make that bid on Jxx xx Jxxxx xxx, which in my opinion is just too weak for such a bid.
4♥ is a better bid by East than 5♦.

Rainer Herrmann

GrahamJson, on 2016-October-14, 14:48, said:

Hmm. East has already supported diamonds after west has made a free bid in the suit.

Rainer, please enlighten me, how can you read in this sentence that East supported the diamonds AFTER west has made a free bid, and decided that he meant 4♦ and not 1♦! I think you see my point.


About bidding 4♥ instead of 5♦, of course you are right. If East is going to bid something, which I do not think it is clear, then yes, I'd rather bid 4♥ and let pd decide.
But my argument is whether E should make a 4th round bidding or not. I believe he should not. I know I would not.
I never made any argument in this topic that supported 5♦ choice vs 4♥. Check my comments and tell me if you find any.

[GrahamJson]

My mistake. It should have been "East has already supported diamonds and west has made a free bid in the suit."

We shall have to agree to disagree regarding whether east should go on over 4D. It's close but surely west must have something to bid 4D. His actual holding is just about what you might expect. I would certainly expect more than a couple of jacks.

[zillahandp]

Cos you did not bid 2hts four losers, forcing, 5/6 hts prob the later and a dfit.

[rmnka447]

I'm also think that after 4 ♦, East should bid 4 ♥. That is a choice of games bid. East's previous 3 ♦ has to show at least strong 4 card ♦ support opposite what could be a complete bust in West.

When West shows a "good" 1 ♦ response by competing to 4 ♦, East can sit for 4 ♦ with a lesser hand or directly bid game in ♦ if that seems clearly right. Since West has not raised hearts, but has shown some values, bridge logic implies West cannot have 3 ♥. So 4 ♥ by East offers to play either 4 ♥ or 5 ♦. 4 ♥ isn't commanding that 4 ♥ be played but is suggesting to West that with the right ♥ playing a 10 trick ♥ game might be preferable to an 11 trick ♦ game. It should show at least 6 pretty decent ♥ since West can have no more than a doubleton.

BTW, I don't subscribe to the theory that a 1 ♥ rebid after the double shows only 5 ♥ and a jump to 2 ♥ shows 6+. When you plan to double and then bid your suit to show the strong overcall, you need to take into account that those nasty opponents will often raise the level of the auction. Then you'll only get to show your suit at a high level. So there are strong overcall hands that you have to make a simple overcall on because you can't afford to rebid your suit at a high level -- perhaps AKx AKxxx Kxx xx over 1 ♣. So, double and bid your suit tends to imply 6+ good cards or an extremely strong 5 card suit. After 1 ♣ - DBL - 3 ♣ - P - P - ?, are you willing to bid 3 ♥ with the suggested example hand?

[johnu]

Playing IMPs, I would be really happy to play 5♦. Playing in 4♥, you don't want to see an opponent with Axx of diamonds and the spade ace, and even if the opponents only can get 1 diamond ruff, you still have to play trumps without a loser.

I have to admit that I would try 4♥ over 4♦ to suggest playing in hearts.

[rhm]

rmnka447, on 2016-October-16, 07:24, said:

BTW, I don't subscribe to the theory that a 1 ♥ rebid after the double shows only 5 ♥ and a jump to 2 ♥ shows 6+. When you plan to double and then bid your suit to show the strong overcall, you need to take into account that those nasty opponents will often raise the level of the auction. Then you'll only get to show your suit at a high level. So there are strong overcall hands that you have to make a simple overcall on because you can't afford to rebid your suit at a high level -- perhaps AKx AKxxx Kxx xx over 1 ♣. So, double and bid your suit tends to imply 6+ good cards or an extremely strong 5 card suit. After 1 ♣ - DBL - 3 ♣ - P - P - ?, are you willing to bid 3 ♥ with the suggested example hand?

I subscribe to the theory that 1♥ after DBL and a 1♦ response suggests at least 5 hearts and 4 spades.
Nobody has explained how one would handle say ♠KJxx ♥AJxxx ♦Ax ♣xx over 1♣, which is a much more common holding than a superstrong hand with hearts after your RHO has opened the bidding.
If you overcall with this distribution you are in grave danger of losing spades if next hand preempts.
If I overcall in hearts I tend not to have spades, at least not four.
With AKx AKxxx Kxx xx I would tend to overcall
Make it a bit stronger I double and bid hearts next.
A jump in hearts after DBL tends to show six and a strong hand.

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

You are more likely to lose 5-3 heart fit than 4-4 spade fit when you have 4-5 majors. Overcalling on that hand is auto for me, your treatment is playable, but I don't think it is worth it.