[awm]

You're playing a strong club system, where 1♣ starts at 16 HCP for unbalanced hands. The system includes five-card majors and fairly "normal" responses (not relays) but otherwise you have your choice of methods. What's your style on the unobstructed auction 1♠-1NT-2♥-2♠-Pass?

Feel free to comment if you would never play such a basic system.

[The_Badger]

awm, on 2017-September-15, 04:20, said:

Feel free to comment if you would never play such a basic system.

I haven't polled as I don't play Precision regularly these days, and it would be better to get responses from players that do, I feel, but I am a fan of constructive raises of a major to the 2 level with 3 card support and 8-11 HCPs or thereabouts.

So given that 1NT is presumably forcing in this auction - not all Precision players play it that way I acknowledge - responder could have anything from a 5-7 count with 3 card ♠ support, or a 8-9 count (or possibly marginally more) with just preference 2 card ♠ support. It all depends on style, I suppose.

[sfi]

The way I play it in various partnerships, only thing about this auction that differs between strong club and 2/1 is 1S-1NT; 3H would show 5-5 maximum, so opener doesn't have that. Opener certainly has the option to move over 2S, but only with a suitable maximum. Just having a 5-4 15 count may not be good enough. But responder's range doesn't really change, since we gave up the idea of passing on six- and bad seven-counts a few years ago.

Playing Precision, I would expect opener to pass most of the time. The hands where it is right to move are fairly straightforward. In Polish Club, where the range is 11-17, opener is more likely to move. In standard or 2/1, even more so.

A caveat is that in all of these partnerships I play something that allows us to invite with 3 card support and still wind up at the two-level. This means that there is not really a need for partner to create this auction with a bad hand and three-card support. That might affect the borderline cases.

[Kungsgeten]

I would expect opener to have 11-15 hcp with 5 spades and 4 hearts. If he's 5-5 with a real max, perhaps he would've rebid 3H, or chose 3H instead of passing 2S. I would expect opener to pass 2S, the preference for me doesn't promise anything at all (just that 2S is better than 2H), but opener may bid again if he think that the hand is worth more than the opening (for instance 5-5 and a max, or perhaps 5440, or 6-4 max). Responder for me is wide range, from a tactical bid that didn't want to pass 1S (perhaps thinking passing makes it easy for the opponents) so zero hcp is possible. It could be up to a hand that doesn't want to invite, probably based on a misfit (so 11-12 hcp, with 13+ we'd probably invite or GF anyway just in case).

I too like constructive raises (about 8-11 with 3-card support), so this sequence in this case could be 0-7 hcp with 3 card support. 1NT isn't forcing though.

[Zelandakh]

I think most Precision players use GF 2/1 responses these days so I chose 11-12 for the last question. 9-10 is also just fine though. On the first question it rather depends on what you call a max. If purely hcp then I think Opener can pass, if max includes the best possible shape too then not - my choice is based on the first premise.

Like sfi, I think this sequence is not dissimilar from the equivalent one in 2/1 but in my view the biggest difference here comes from Responder not holding a false preference hand. 2♠ should rather be the contract Responder thinks is best without worrying about keeping the auction open for a potentially strong hand opposite.

[straube]

I think 1S-1N, 3H should be a decent 6/5.

1S-1N, 2H is very preemptive and should not be a minimum 5/4. It's preemptive because it passes both minor suit contracts (responder can have a long minor) and because responder will want to raise with both constructive values (important to show fit) and invitational values but has only 3H available shy of game.

If possible, it helps to create your system so that 1S-1N denies a 3-fit for spades (which yours does). It also helps if responder can offload from 1N as many heart hands as is possible. I like 1S-2D to offload invitational 5H and constructive 6H. Then I play 1S-1N, 2H-3H is constructive and 1S-1N, 2H-4H is invitational (based one opener having something extra)

[PrecisionL]

We allow opener to have up to 17 hcp for 1M opening to minimize problems over opponent's pre-empts, been doing this for one year now.

[straube]

repost

[awm]

To explain why I'm asking, I think the old-fashioned approach is that opener can have his full range of HCP and responder has something like 5 to a bad 10. This means you have to bid 2NT with 11. If you're a conservative opener (1♠ is usually at least 12 or maybe a really good 11) then this is okay, and a lot of 2/1 players still do something like this.

However, strong club players have taken to opening lighter and lighter, to the point where a lot of 10-counts are opening 1♠ (maybe even some 9-counts). This means if you use the approach outlined above, you are playing 2NT quite a lot on really thin high card points for not much reward. You also get into the question of what to do with a non-fitting 13-count; in the old-fashioned approach above the answer was "force to game" but if you're opening most 10s that doesn't seem like the best approach.

I'm wondering if other people have encountered this problem, and how they deal with it (if at all). For what it's worth, Sam and my solution was that in the above sequence, responder shows two spades and 8-12 HCP. With less than 8 and a doubleton spade we pass the opening, and with three spades we pass or raise (we don't play constructive raises). Then we give opener the responsibility to take another call over 2♠ when holding 14-15 HCP, which is fairly safe because responder promised enough extras for 2NT to be okay. With 13 responder doesn't bid 1NT at all, and we have some non-GF sequences that start with a 2/1 bid. Admittedly all this is quite far from standard/popular!

[straube]

I like what you're doing. Btw, I've previously used 1M-1N, 2x-2M, 2N as a max 5/5

[Zelandakh]

awm, on 2017-September-15, 07:04, said:

I'm wondering if other people have encountered this problem, and how they deal with it (if at all). For what it's worth, Sam and my solution was that in the above sequence, responder shows two spades and 8-12 HCP. With less than 8 and a doubleton spade we pass the opening, and with three spades we pass or raise (we don't play constructive raises).

Given that the hands with 3 spades are taken out of the equation, the relay approach seems to offer an easy solution. With a weak hand, respond in a minor (nat, non-forcing) and bid 2♠ over Opener's 2♥ rebid - Opener will presumably now pass other than hands with lots of distributional extras. With an invitational hand and 2 spades, relay (1NT) and bid 2♠ over partner's 2♣ (min with 0-3 hearts) or 2♦ (4+ hearts). And if Opener has a maximum we are safely in a GF auction. Perhaps this creates different problems along the way but I think it probably solves the listed one completely.

[awm]

Zelandakh, on 2017-September-15, 09:33, said:

Given that the hands with 3 spades are taken out of the equation, the relay approach seems to offer an easy solution. With a weak hand, respond in a minor (nat, non-forcing) and bid 2♠ over Opener's 2♥ rebid - Opener will presumably now pass other than hands with lots of distributional extras. With an invitational hand and 2 spades, relay (1NT) and bid 2♠ over partner's 2♣ (min with 0-3 hearts) or 2♦ (4+ hearts). And if Opener has a maximum we are safely in a GF auction. Perhaps this creates different problems along the way but I think it probably solves the listed one completely.

Not really, it just moves the problem around. There are basically four types of hands:

1. GF
2. Too weak for game barring a huge fit, but wanting to improve the partial or mess with opponents
3. Could have game but only if partner is super max (like 10-11 points wanting game opposite 14-15)
4. Game unless partner is pretty bad (like 12-13 points wanting game opposite 12-15)

If you're a conservative opener you can game force with 4, but most of us are opening a lot of tens etc.

It sounds like you're relaying with all of 1,3,4 at which point you will have trouble distinguishing 3 vs. 4 after opener's rebid. You do play better partials on some declined invites, but you will play worse partials in many other cases (weak hands, missing big minor suit fits when opener is minimum, etc).

[nige1]

IMO, it depends on partnership agreements. For example, we play a kind of Gazzilli, so after 1♠ - 1N

• Pass = NAT 9-13 5(332).
• 2♣ = ART 9-13 6+ ♠s or 14-15. Then 2♦ = ART 10+.
• 2♦ = NAT 9-13 4+ ♦s.
• 2♥ = NAT 9-13 4+ ♥s.
• 2♠ = NAT 9-13 4+ ♣s.
• 2N = ART 12-13 6+ ♠s 4+ other. e.g. ♠ K Q J x x x ♥- ♦ x x x ♣ A K x x
• 3♣/♦/♥ = NAT 12-13 5+ 5+.
• 3♠ = NAT 10-13 e.g. ♠ A K Q x x x x ♥- ♦ Q x x ♣ x x x

[straube]

Did you mean to focus on 1S-1N, 2H? It seems like your question/method applies to 2m as well.

[awm]

straube, on 2017-September-15, 13:16, said:

Did you mean to focus on 1S-1N, 2H? It seems like your question/method applies to 2m as well.

There is more room over the 2m rebid, especially over 2♣ where many people play some artificial methods. I thought the 2♥ rebid might be more interesting for that reason.

[straube]

That's where I was going.

[nullve]

awm, on 2017-September-15, 04:20, said:

You're playing a strong club system, where 1♣ starts at 16 HCP for unbalanced hands. The system includes five-card majors and fairly "normal" responses (not relays) but otherwise you have your choice of methods. What's your style on the unobstructed auction 1♠-1NT-2♥-2♠-Pass?

Feel free to comment if you would never play such a basic system.

A Gazzilli-free limited 1M version of what I play in my 2/1-like system:

1♠-1N; ?:

P = MIN, 5S3-H*
2♣ = 4+ H (as in your "modified" Gazzilli, but without the strong hands)
...2♦ = INV+ relay
......2♥ = MIN
......2♠+ = MAX
2♦ = MAX*, 5S3-H4+m ("Muiderberg")
2♥ = MAX, 6+S3-H
2♠ = MIN, 6+S3-H
2N+ = *,

where MIN and MAX are supposed to feel like 3-point ranges, as in

MIN = meets the rule of 19, but not the rule of 22 (so e.g. 9-11 hcp if 5152, but 11-13 hcp if 5233)
MAX = meets the rule of 22, but not the rule of 25 (so e.g. 12-14 hcp if 5152)

if more faith is put in 'rules of N' thinking as a hand evaluation tool than is probably justified. (Is a 5152 10 count really worth as much as a 5233 12 count at NT? I doubt it.)

So instead of

1♠-1N; 2♥-2♠ = PREF, possibly with as much as 11 or even 12 hcp,

which puts a lot of pressure on Opener if he has "14-15", the bidding might go either

1♠-1N; 2♣-2♠ = PREF, to play,

1♠-1N; 2♣-2♦; 2♥-2♠ = PREF, to play

or

1♠-1N; 2♣-2♦; 2♠+ ... game.

* MIN hands with 5M5+m have to go somewhere. I currently pass 1M-1N with 9-11,5M5m (with mixed results!), but I've also considered including this hand type in the 2♦ rebid and play

1♠-1N; 2♦-?:

P: allowed
2♥ = 5+ H, to play opposite 2-3 H
...P = 2-3 H
...2♠ = 1- H
2♠ = to play
2N = GF opposite MAX, relay
...3m = MIN, 5 m
...3♥ = MAX, 4+ C (=> 3♠ = 5+ H)
...3♠ = MAX, 2-H4+D
...3N = MAX, 3H4+D
3♣ = P/C

[Zelandakh]

awm, on 2017-September-15, 10:03, said:

Not really, it just moves the problem around. There are basically four types of hands:

I guess I come at the problem from a different angle. It tends to be easier to upgrade a hand during the auction than downgrade, so I start from the basis that the hands do not fit, something like 5422 opposite 2245 and define ranges <INV - INV - GF. The second and third of these relay.

In the <INV case, bidding is natural and either partner can upgrade to an invite or GF based on a good fit.

The INV hands will make a natural call after the initial relay assuming a negative response from Opener, for which 2♠ is the logical choice given the conditions discussed. Opener can pass this, invite or go to game.

And the GF hands relay twice.

The point here is that by dividing Responder's range into 3, Opener is in a position to do the right thing. Your method is better than Standard but Responder's range is stil 5 points in the invitational case, which is quite wide. The relay method has the most problems on the <INV hands, where the range is uncomfortably large if the openings get too light. If an invite is 12-13, which sound right for your methods, then the weak hands are everything up to 11. In that case I would recommend doing what you have already decided on, passing with something like 0-6/0-7 and a doubleton and only bidding 2m followed by 2♠ with 7-11/8-11. This seems to take the best from both approaches and keeps the ranges manageable in all cases and nonetheless the GF auctions remain "pure".

[straube]

When you're vulnerable, passing with a doubleton and 0-6 or 0-7 points makes sense because you risk getting too high or having to play 1N, but when you're NV and one of the goals is "messing with the opponents" or at least taking the 1N bid away from them, it may be too much of a downside to prepare for the auction 1S-1N, 2H or perhaps 1S-1N, 2D by having the agreement that a return to the suit promises 7 or 8+.


Sorry for plugging 1S-2D as hearts again but I get...

1S-1N, 2C-2D natural to play
1S-1N, 2C-2H Lebensohl, often to dump partner in 2S
1S-1N, 2C-2S two fit, better than Lebeonsohl

Lebensohl available after 1S-1N, 2D

I still have the problem of 1S-1N, 2H-2S being very wide but I've solved the problem when raising hearts instead.