[hrothgar]

Chamaco, on Apr 26 2005, 07:50 PM, said:

In Mike Lawrence style, it DOES show a non minimum hand, not necessarily a reverse, but a GOOD FULL opener, let's say a 6-losers hand. According to ML, subminimum opener cannot raise the minor to the 3-level even with good support...

I have Axxx in support for partner...
I have a side suit singleton
I have two Aces...

and I am supposed to rebid 2♠ because I am not strong enough to show support?

As Ben has already noted, this hand improved dramatically following partner's 2♦ response. If I'm not strong enough to support partner then I sure as hell should have passed to begin with.

[mike777]

hrothgar, on Apr 26 2005, 04:49 PM, said:

Quick comment:

Players who advocate opening this hand playing 2/1 might wish to consider the following:

"Bridge World Standard encapsultates common American expert practices, determined by polls, as a set of partnership agreements (and, where there is no consensus, non-agreements). It is used as a framework for problems in the Master Solvers’ Club, by impromptu partnerships, and as a basis for discussion by those who wish to formulate their own system"

The Bridge World offers the following hand as a representative example of a minimum opening bid playing BWS:

♠ AQxxx
♥ Axx
♦ Jxxx
♣ x

By my reckoning (and Edgar Kaplan's K+R algorithm) this hand is worth 12.6 HCP. In contrast, the hand that we're all discussing is "only" worth 12.2

In short, if you're playing "vanilla" 2/1, this ain't an opening bid... Clearly, if you're playing Precision or MOSCITO this is worth opening. If you're playing Kaplan-Sheinwold you also get to open - you have 2.5 quick tricks and you get to open light in the majors. However, if you're playing 2/1 you need to take your lumps and pass...

Very interesting, thanks.

BTW I know nothing about fit showing bids but if:
P=1D
2S=2NT
I would guess the best use of 2nt is some sort of asking for shortness bid rather than natural but perhaps not?

On other fit showing auctions does responder then bid natural or make some sort of asking bid?

[luke warm]

i would not open, but if i did open 1s i'd then raise diamonds... i agree with roland and others, if i can't support on this (especially in a game force auction), the bidding becomes too stilted for me...

[mike777]

luke warm, on Apr 26 2005, 06:01 PM, said:

i would not open, but if i did open 1s i'd then raise diamonds... i agree with roland and others, if i can't support on this (especially in a game force auction), the bidding becomes too stilted for me...

Update, upon reflection too many rebid choices after:
P=1D
1S=?

will post hands later and let you folks bid in your favourite 2/1 style.

Do wish to see how many open or pass or play jump fit after pass, thanks.

[pclayton]

I pass.

ZAr, schmars, its just a little threadbare for a 1♠ opener. Reverse my red suits, or move the Q♥ to one of my long suits and I open.

[luis]

I don't really believe most of the answers.
I really can't answer without a good list of information:
- Who is my pd is he solid? crazy? young? old? stable? unstable? emotional?
- Vulnerability?
- How are we doing? Are we 1st ? Last? Mid of the pack?
- Who are my opponents? Style? are they bad? good? solid? crazy?
- What kind of result do we need?

Depending on many of those I can either open 1♠ or pass. Assuming I decide to open 1♠ over 2♦ it's quite obvious that we need to have agreed weather we bid 3♦ with extras or with any hand including my usual sub-minimum openings.

So I guess this question doesn't make a lot of sense to be asked as a poll. The answer is "it depends"

[Chamaco]

luis, on Apr 27 2005, 03:30 PM, said:

Assuming I decide to open 1♠ over 2♦ it's quite obvious that we need to have agreed weather we bid 3♦ with extras or with any hand including my usual sub-minimum openings.

So I guess this question doesn't make a lot of sense to be asked as a poll. The answer is "it depends"

That's what I meant in my posts
I only was saying that *IF ONE HAS AGREED THAT THE RAISE SHOWS EXTRAS*, one cannot raise with this hand.

At least not according to Mike Lawrence style because according to him, EXTRAS means substantial extras: yes, after pard introduces diamonds, the hand becomes quite good, but still a 7.5 losers hand (Qxx is NOT 2 losers, but 2.5).
ML advocates the direct raise with a hand close to reverse strength, not necessarily in HCP, god shape would also be ok:
but even reasoning in terms of shape rather than hcp, the requirement should be a 6- losers hand (7 losers hand correspond to minimum opening strength- even when we find good fit).
This hand has 1 loser too much.

So, if one plays this style, he has to accept that even holding good support, he cannot raise immediately because pard will play us for 1+ trick more.
Playing this style, I would make a waiting bid, and give a delayed raise unless pard settles for NT (which means or singleton is wasted for a suit contract).

One may as well agree that the raise only shows the right shape, and nothing about strength, which is also fine, just a different style from the one used by Mike Lawrence (which i suppose is not necessarily better or worse).

Bottomline 1: have good agreements with pard :-)
Bottomline 2: agree with Luis on the tactical considerations

[mike777]

luis, on Apr 27 2005, 10:30 AM, said:

- Who is my pd is he solid? crazy? young? old? stable? unstable? emotional?
-- How are we doing? Are we 1st ? Last? Mid of the pack?
- Who are my opponents? Style? are they bad? good? solid? crazy?
- What kind of result do we need?

I guess this question doesn't make a lot of sense to be asked as a poll. The answer is "it depends"

thanks for post.

1) I can tell you that responder is the old buddy who along with a couple other of his pals taught me bridge back in 1971. Sends me email quizzes as I try to relearn bridge as a novice now.
2) Haha maybe yes to all of who is responder
The other pals have won a bunch of world championships and
all I can say is he may still despite playing little real bridge because of family and job.
3) Opener is almost over 10,000pt guy
4) Assume your opp are top flight
5) Need to win this hand for second place in Swiss.

Want to know what style, treatments others prefer assuming 2/1 and not force only one style on this post. thanks.

[inquiry]

Go ahead and post the handst so I can in my play 3-3 ♥ fit since I am the only enlightened person who found the 2♥ rebid, (and at matchpoints I think 2♥ is even more indicated). Silly me, I think 2♥ is clear cut.

After bidding 2♥, I have ♥'s in play as possible moysein (yes i have occassionally played 3-3 fits, but on this hand, I think wth the diamond fit we can avoid 3-3's, partner will have to raise hearts TWICE or show four immediately for us to get into hearts...). Following 2♥ I will raise diamonds, we have room to explore either major, partner is likley to bid 2NT as a relay to find out more about my hand or to raise a major. After he bids 2NT and I show diamond support it will be clear that I have club weakness and shortage. This will give partner all the info he needs to know (except of course that have one less heart and one more diamond than he might suspect). The one "problem" for me here, is he may raise immediately to 3♥. I play that as promising four.. this is required, because otherwise, when I rebid 4♦ it will be a cue-bid slam try rather than diamonds. If I decide I don't want to play the moysein over the immediate 3♥ raise, I will jump to 5♦ (PFA).

If the bidding goes 1S-2D-2H-2N-3D-3H-4D-4H, I will take the second heart raise as showing four as well, and actually stronger than the immediate 3♥ raise, an immediate 2H - 4H jump by him shows the weaker hands he can have with 5♦ and 4♥'s (for his 2/1 GF). So, btw, both 3H and 2NT then 3H then 4H rebods bu partner shows progressively stronger hands with four card support.

Ben

Ben

[luis]

mike777, on Apr 27 2005, 04:29 PM, said:

luis, on Apr 27 2005, 10:30 AM, said:

- Who is my pd is he solid? crazy? young? old? stable? unstable? emotional?
-- How are we doing? Are we 1st ? Last? Mid of the pack?
- Who are my opponents? Style? are they bad? good? solid? crazy?
- What kind of result do we need?

I guess this question doesn't make a lot of sense to be asked as a poll. The answer is "it depends"

thanks for post.

1) I can tell you that responder is the old buddy who along with a couple of other his pals taught me bridge back in 1971. Sends me email quizzes as I try to relearn bridge as a novice now.
2) Haha maybe yes to all of who is responder
The other pals have won a bunch of world championships and
all I can say is he may still despite playing little real bridge because of family and job.
3) Opener is almost over 10,000pt guy
4) Assume your opp are top flight
5) Need to win this hand for second place in Swiss.

Want to know what style, treatments others prefer assuming 2/1 and not force only one style on this post. thanks.

Under those conditions I think I'm going to open 1♠ because I need to win the hand and I don't think I'm going to win the hand passing.
You asked about what style of 2/1 I prefer so:
I like being able to open light.
After 2/1 support is 4 cards and doesn't show any extras to me but it always shows exactly 4 cards. I never support with 3.
I only bid 2NT with doubleton in my pd's suit and stoppers in the other suits.
I rebid 2M very frequently as a catch all bid.

[kenberg]

I am going to make a wild guess here: If at one table the auction went 1S-2D-3D or 1S-2D-2S, and at the other table it went P-1D-2S, and if only one table ended in the correct contract, I am guessing it is the second table.

In the second auction the spade-diamond hand has shown his suits (even w/o discussion this auction must show a fit), limited his hand, and the bidding is still at the two level. This must make it easier to place the contract correctly.

Was it not so?

[mike777]

Very interesting comments all!

AT8XX=QXX=A9XX=X

KX=AX=KQTXXX=QXX

Disaster struck other table which played 3nt, down.

Many comments about how strong opening hand is or is not.
I see no one mentioned opening and then 4C splinter.

Here was the bidding and commentary from pair.

1S=2D
4C=4H (KICKBACK)
5C=6D

1) Clear opening
2) "You don't need extra high card strength to make a splinter bid beyond what is needed to force to game. After 2/1 game is already forced. What you do need is the right distribution...4 trumps and a singleton equals the right distribution. Bidding 3 diamonds would not show this great distribution for playing in diamonds..."

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Apr 28 2005, 12:21 AM, said:

2) "You don't need extra high card strength to make a splinter bid beyond what is needed to force to game. After 2/1 game is already forced. What you do need is the right distribution...4 trumps and a singleton equals the right distribution.  Bidding 3 diamonds would not show this great distribution for playing in diamonds..."

Interesting theory

Sometimes you'll find magical slams.
Other times, you'll go down in assine 5M contracts that could otherwise have been avoided.

Guess it all depends on the set of hands that you want to show...

[inquiry]

mike777, on Apr 27 2005, 05:21 PM, said:

Very interesting comments all!

AT8XX=QXX=A9XX=X

KX=AX=KQTXXX=QXX

Disaster struck other table which played 3nt, down.

Many comments about how strong opening hand is or is not.
I see no one mentioned opening and then 4C splinter.

Here was the bidding and commentary from pair.

1S=2D
4C=4H (KICKBACK)
5C=6D

1) Clear opening
2) "You don't need extra high card strength to make a splinter bid beyond what is needed to force to game. After 2/1 game is already forced. What you do need is the right distribution...4 trumps and a singleton equals the right distribution.  Bidding 3 diamonds would not show this great distribution for playing in diamonds..."

For what it is worth, on this hand, I think my approach is much better than the 4♣ splinter. You can't back up 3NT. Bidding 2♥, have your partner relay to 2NT for more info, then i raise diamonds, gettting across the same idea, maybe a diamond more/heart less. And one thing for sure, you will avoid 3NT. South still takes control after this auction.

BTW, note my earlier comments about this hand after parnters 2♦ response, where I said...

Quote

I am actually getting giddy with excitement. My "sound" 27 point opener has mushroomed to not 27 ZAR points, but now 30 ZAR points. A full "king" more than a minimum 1♠ opener. Here I would consider bidding 3di, not because I only have 5♠ and not because I do have 4di, but because I have extra values.

My 30 ZAR point "extra value" showing 3♦ bid with partners who expect it to show extra values also leads to slam, since partner is looking at around 32 zar points will know we are in slam zone right away after the raise. And I know my partner has at least 26 zar points for his 2/1, so we have a minimum of 57 zar points BEFORE I bid, so if partner has just a king more than minumum, we are in slam zone.

[the hog]

I would open 1S.
Over pd's 2D it depends on agreements - 3D if this shows no extras, 2S if it does. The answer really depends on what you have deiced to play with partner.

If I passed, I would bid 2S over partner's 1D opening showing a maximum passed hand, 5+S and a D fit.

[helene_t]

Playing SAYC I would open this hand. If partner bids 1NT I can pass, if he bids 2♣ he will often take a prefference to spades, and if he bids something else I will not be ashamed of my hand.

Playing 2/1 I'm not so sure.

Do we play a dirrect 2NT response as standard (13-15 bal)? In that case I think I would support diamonds directly even if it shows extras.

[Fluffy]

mike777, on Apr 27 2005, 09:21 PM, said:

2) "You don't need extra high card strength to make a splinter bid beyond what is needed to force to game. After 2/1 game is already forced. What you do need is the right distribution...4 trumps and a singleton equals the right distribution. Bidding 3 diamonds would not show this great distribution for playing in diamonds..."

I play this way, but only below 3NT, I supose the fact my 2/1 will be 4 cards often has something to do with it.

[inquiry]

hrothgar, on Apr 27 2005, 05:30 PM, said:

mike777, on Apr 28 2005, 12:21 AM, said:

2) "You don't need extra high card strength to make a splinter bid beyond what is needed to force to game. After 2/1 game is already forced. What you do need is the right distribution...4 trumps and a singleton equals the right distribution.  Bidding 3 diamonds would not show this great distribution for playing in diamonds..."

Interesting theory

Sometimes you'll find magical slams.
Other times, you'll go down in assine 5M contracts that could otherwise have been avoided.

Guess it all depends on the set of hands that you want to show...

Bid 2♥ with this hand and cater to both those situations, and the possibility to play in a moysein heart fit as well (really great result at matchpoints).

Look what happens if you raise diamonds or bid 2♠ here...

1S - 2D
2S - 2NT (forcing)
?

Now if you bid 3H it points out the club weakness but you have not shown your diamond support

If you bid 3D, it converts a 3H bid by partner into an asking bid for 3NT. I assume asking about club stopper but some use it as asking about heart stopper. And lacking a club stopper what is your 3♠ bid over partners 2NT

If you bid 4♦ here over 2NT, you would have been better off making a splinter bid over 2♦.

After 2♠, you effective eliminate 4♥ as a contract, and you make it impossible to show your club shortage effectively. After a 2♥ bid, in exchange for lying about your number of hearts by one card, you show your hand pattern (short clubs, other three suits), you keep the possibility of hearts in play, you alert your partner (with your next anticipated bid) to the dangers of the club suit.

I will say the people bidding 4♣ (justin and the player at the table), did a great job of hand evaluation as well. They too got giddy with their diamond support. They realize that 5♦ is certainlty playable (or else not pass 3NT) and thus that this hand is in the slam zone. I think this is the point the 2♠ rebidders to deny extra stregth miss. This hand HAS extra stregnth despite is anemic high card stregnth.

Ben