[msjennifer]

since the 3S bid has forced us to bid any suit at 4 level I with my regular partner use modified LEBENSOHL over 3SX or 3SXX.We bid 3NT to announce a poor hand asking partner to bid 4C .If he does that then we pass with clubs or correct to D or H as per our holding.However with a stronger or distributional hand partner is at liberty to not bid 4C as requested and describe his hand and that action is GF..However this does not mean that others should follow this method unless with pre agreement.In the present hand we would have bid 3NT over 3Sxx to show poverty and then converted the forced 4C bid to 4H.An advantage of this proves useful if the 3S bidder continues with 4S as the 3NT bid has already warned partner of our poverty.

[Stephen Tu]

The_Badger, on 2018-July-31, 01:23, said:

To me that's illogical. If North's XX is a business redouble, a willingness to play in 3♠XX, how can East's pass show a willingness to accept that as the final contract?

Because North's xx might be a bluff to get out of trouble. Suppose North knows from prior experience that you interpret xx - pass as bid, i.e. you always pull redoubles. So now looking at a weak hand and a void spade, thinking he is about to go for a number at unfavorable, he can try xx and make your side run. Great! If you can't ever defend at high levels after a redouble, essentially you become exploitable.

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Except if you have a specific arrangement with your partner - as said previously such agreements are unlikely at rubber bridge -that East's 4♥ bid could be made with nothing, I wonder how you would react with the West hand?

You seem to be sole person expecting that 4H over the redouble promises some values. It seems to me that the assumption by everyone is that it doesn't show anything, that it would take specific arrangement for partner to assume that it does show something.

Again, what is the utility in that, how often do you have a slam invite if the xx is genuine, and why are other methods of showing strength (cue bidding, jumping, taking further action if the opps go on to 4S) inadequate when the xx was a bluff?

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That's the crux of the argument: 4♥ by East after the 3♠ redouble without knowing that it may have been bid with nothing, and I bet 99.99% of West's would bid on after the opponents push on to 4♠, especially non-vulnerable and a game against at rubber bridge.

East's bid really shouldn't show anything or push West to bid. Really North shouldn't have put the warning flags up with the redouble and just raised 4S to begin with. Then West kind of has to double again, since 4S can be anything, and partner can still have a moderate hand that makes 5 of something but not quite enough to bid it freely over 4S, or enough for a cheap sac, and there are good chances of setting when partner sits. Then North can spring the trap.

The bid over redouble is kind of a forced bid, if you don't want to defend. It just shows length in hearts. Forced bids don't show values. Just like no one assumes 1c-dbl-rdbl-1S shows any values.

[ggwhiz]

I have the agreement that bidding directly is weaker than passing which shows at least some defensive ambitions.

Very similar to my opening 1x - dbl - rdbl - p back to me. I bid with a shapely piece of cheese and pass with a normal opener.

At lower levels pass of a redouble is indeed to play and immediately having discussed that it went p - 1♦ and I doubled on said piece of cheese. It went rdbl - p back to me and I cut and ran. Eventually I let partner declare 3♦ plus 1 and he said "I'm betting you will never do that again" and was right.

[TylerE]

The_Badger, on 2018-July-31, 01:23, said:

If North's XX is a business redouble, a willingness to play in 3♠XX, how can East's pass show a willingness to accept that as the final contract?

Well, any other call E makes removes the opportunity to play 3[s]xx, so how else would one try to play there?

[nekthen]

msjennifer, on 2018-July-31, 02:52, said:

since the 3S bid has forced us to bid any suit at 4 level I with my regular partner use modified LEBENSOHL over 3SX or 3SXX.We bid 3NT to announce a poor hand asking partner to bid 4C .If he does that then we pass with clubs or correct to D or H as per our holding.However with a stronger or distributional hand partner is at liberty to not bid 4C as requested and describe his hand and that action is GF..However this does not mean that others should follow this method unless with pre agreement.In the present hand we would have bid 3NT over 3Sxx to show poverty and then converted the forced 4C bid to 4H.An advantage of this proves useful if the 3S bidder continues with 4S as the 3NT bid has already warned partner of our poverty.

This is very different to lebensohl. You are giving up the ability to play 3N, which can easily be the last making game. The redouble, I have always thought to be pointless as you are giving opps an extra bid (pass), but clearly, you can sow confusion! Clearly the redoubler expects 3S to make, but that does not mean he has a power house. I think pass must have some positive meaning, 3N is to make and any other bid is weak.