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Finding the right spot Then messing it up

#1 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-August-20, 05:43

I'm playing in an ACBL IMP's challenge tournament - robot individual. Here is the Board 1 Disaster.
I won't show you the other tournament where the same thing happened - it's even worse. The great thing about IMP's though is that you can recover into a place.
My hours of practice with robots has taught me to read the bidding carefully and now I can regularly find the right spot.
The problem I have now is that my card play is so terrible I am usually at least a couple of tricks short of Nirvana.
My friend North opens 1. This is wonderful news in a best-hand tournament because I have 16 HCP and a singleton .

Also, my practice with GIB reminds me that 2 is really going to excite North, who tells me 4 - no, not Gerber.
He's got a "solid suit -- 11-21 HCP; solid 6-card ; AKQ,no ; 12-22 total points"
I'm now a world expert in GIBberish; this means he's got a long solid club suit and not much else. I decide to check: 4NT.
5 - yep, 2 key cards and the queen. OK, what can possibly go wrong. 6NT.
I'll tell you what can go wrong - my card play. Here's the hand. - No solace at all that nobody else found it.
West led the K

Fortuna Fortis Felix
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-August-20, 06:36

This is not a tricky habd to play, there is only one plausible layout that gives you a chance, W must have 6 spades, and E the A.

So cash say 3 clubs, diamond to the K, heart to the Q, cash the remaining clubs pitching one from each and lead towards the Q, the hearts are a mirage, you need 2 extra tricks and if diamonds are not as you want, W is cashing a load of spades, the hearts only provide 1.

At pairs there might be something to be said for trying to cash 4 hearts so you're only -1, but if that works, 6 is cold.
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#3 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-August-20, 12:05

View Postpilowsky, on 2020-August-20, 05:43, said:

My hours of practice with robots has taught me to read the bidding carefully and now I can regularly find the right spot.


By “read the bidding” do you mean literally *read* the robot’s explanation of its bids?

You are getting no bidding practice at all if that’s what you do. On the other hand, the robots bid so badly that perhaps it is hopeless practising your bidding with them. Do you get in a lot of bidding practice and system discussion with your real-life partners? Do you get a table together from time to time or practise with one partner against robot opponents? You find the robots useful, but it is important to escape to the real world from time to time.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#4 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2020-August-20, 12:49

2 =

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Soloway jump shift -- rebiddable ; 17+ total points

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#5 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2020-August-20, 15:29

You shouldn't be proud that you found an extremely lucky layout that allows slam to make, and just blame your card play. Your bidding needs a ton of work also.

Bidding 2d is a horrific bid.

-You could conceivably belong in ANY of the trump suits or NT. Bidding 2D makes it completely impossible to ever play in either major, and will have partner supporting diamonds on 3 cds, you almost never want to play slam in a moysian. The way you bid, you might as well have just bid 1c-6nt.

- 16 hcp is not enough to force slam opposite a minimum opener. Jump shifting makes it harder to find out if partner has extras, as it takes away his room and motivation to jump.

1H is absolutely forcing. You don't have to announce GF strength right away, you'll get a chance to FG on the second round, or at least make some other bid that is forcing. Bidding 1H will reveal if a heart fit exists, or if a spade fit exists. It might not find a diamond fit right away, but that can be found later. Learn more about opener's hand, not every strong hand must be strong jump shift, in fact the vast majority of them should NOT.

Generally, playing Soloway jump shifts, you should only be jump shifting on 3 hand types:
1. *Solid 6, 7 cd suits* worth a GF, that you can rebid the jump shift suit comfortably and are quite happy playing in opposite a stiff
2. More like 18-19 balanced-ish with a good suit (maybe a great 17), with stoppers in the unbids, you will bid 3nt next usually (maybe unless partner raises your suit), inviting slam only if partner has a non-min. With 20+ you are too strong for this and should probably just bid 1 only and force slam later.
3. Some big fit for partner with a good suit of your own, so 5-4 shape minimum, this is shown by bidding a 3rd/4th suit as a splinter or raising partner if partner doesn't raise your suit.

With any other strong hand, you should just be bidding a new suit, forcing, or making a forcing raise if you just want to play in opener's suit and don't have interest in alternate contracts.
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#6 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-August-20, 16:22

View PostStephen Tu, on 2020-August-20, 15:29, said:

You shouldn't be proud that you found an extremely lucky layout that allows slam to make, and just blame your card play. Your bidding needs a ton of work also.

Bidding 2d is a horrific bid.

-You could conceivably belong in ANY of the trump suits or NT. Bidding 2D makes it completely impossible to ever play in either major, and will have partner supporting diamonds on 3 cds, you almost never want to play slam in a moysian. The way you bid, you might as well have just bid 1c-6nt.

- 16 hcp is not enough to force slam opposite a minimum opener. Jump shifting makes it harder to find out if partner has extras, as it takes away his room and motivation to jump.

1H is absolutely forcing. You don't have to announce GF strength right away, you'll get a chance to FG on the second round, or at least make some other bid that is forcing. Bidding 1H will reveal if a heart fit exists, or if a spade fit exists. It might not find a diamond fit right away, but that can be found later. Learn more about opener's hand, not every strong hand must be strong jump shift, in fact the vast majority of them should NOT.

Generally, playing Soloway jump shifts, you should only be jump shifting on 3 hand types:
1. *Solid 6, 7 cd suits* worth a GF, that you can rebid the jump shift suit comfortably and are quite happy playing in opposite a stiff
2. More like 18-19 balanced-ish with a good suit (maybe a great 17), with stoppers in the unbids, you will bid 3nt next usually (maybe unless partner raises your suit), inviting slam only if partner has a non-min. With 20+ you are too strong for this and should probably just bid 1 only and force slam later.
3. Some big fit for partner with a good suit of your own, so 5-4 shape minimum, this is shown by bidding a 3rd/4th suit as a splinter or raising partner if partner doesn't raise your suit.

With any other strong hand, you should just be bidding a new suit, forcing, or making a forcing raise if you just want to play in opener's suit and don't have interest in alternate contracts.

That's an interesting perspective Stephen. Since I am aware that you are a much better Bridge player than me I shall take your comments in good part.
On the other hand, here are some things that may not have occurred to you if you do not play in this style of tournament often.


The IMP's challenge ACBL format sets about 12-20 players of varying skill level at individual tables with 3 robot opponents. Each has 58 minutes to play 12 hands.
If I finish quickly I can kibbitz the others and watch my IMP's change as they do better or worse. For me, this is the best part. It is completely different to the Daylong format and to many other challenge formats.
Unlike matchpoints formats, it does reward occasional bold bidding that results in large swings.

Before the tournament starts I carefully watch who is registering. This is because the tournament generally attracts a very broad skill level. From the very best, to - well - me.
My plan is to test myself against the best players in the tournament.
To do this I need to get the "average" boards right, but I must also find something special where I can.

Next, it's a best-hand tournament. So on this hand, I tried to imagine what North might have given what I had. I completely agree that in normal circumstances a Soloway jump shift is a stretch.
With GIB if I bid 6NT as you suggest I am quite likely to end up in 7NTx-1: not a good outcome.

What I imagined was that North would have a solid Club suit for its bid and a little extra on the outside. Combined with my nice Hearts and Spades I figured 6NT was makeable even if the A was missing.

This was my reasoning for deliberately bidding Soloway (17+ total points). The layout was exactly what I expected it to be: Unfortunately, so was my card-play. Interestingly, although I lack the solid suit, I do have 19 total points - so there is that...
Luckily, I have a lesson today Posted Image.








Fortuna Fortis Felix
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#7 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-August-20, 16:53

View Postpilowsky, on 2020-August-20, 16:22, said:


Next, it's a best-hand tournament. So on this hand, I tried to imagine what North might have given what I had. I completely agree that in normal circumstances a Soloway jump shift is a stretch.


Calling your bid a “Soloway jump shift” is simply inaccurate. There is no law that says you have to play this style of JS with your real partners, but if it is what GIB is expecting you will normally get in trouble rather than get lucky.

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With GIB if I bid 6NT as you suggest I am quite likely to end up in 7NTx-1: not a good outcome.


It was not a suggestion.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#8 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-August-20, 17:22

View Postpilowsky, on 2020-August-20, 16:22, said:

What I imagined was that North would have a solid Club suit for its bid and a little extra on the outside..

.. This was my reasoning for deliberately bidding Soloway (17+ total points). The layout was exactly what I expected it to be

You bid Soloway because you expected your partner's 1 opening bid showed solid clubs?

Not only are the odds heavily against this (and you are in massive trouble when he doesn't), 1 works just as well when partner *does* have solid clubs.
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#9 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2020-August-20, 19:01

View Postpilowsky, on 2020-August-20, 16:22, said:

Unlike matchpoints formats, it does reward occasional bold bidding that results in large swings.

IMPs just means certain boards are worth more than others. Where game/slam swings available, and partials to a somewhat lesser extent. Mainly where there are going to be some people making game/slam where others fail to reach/go down, difference can be in the bidding or the play or both. The goal is simply to get these big boards RIGHT, the small boards where the only difference is +1 overtrick or not are rather insignificant (though good players will out of habit tend to pick up fractions of imps on many of these also).

IMPs doesn't really mean you should be particularly bold in bidding vs MP, except in bidding vulnerable games where you stretch an extra 10-11% or so, accepting 38-40% success rate on the thinnest games you choose to bid instead of trying to be >50. Not vul, you only stretch to bid game very slightly. Slams, any vul, for small slam you shouldn't be < 50% because tossing away a making game to get to a failing slam is a huge loss, as big a loss as making the slam would gain you. For grand slam you need to be even more conservative, particularly if a decent chunk of the field may not even find a small slam. There are actually quite a lot of situations where MP calls for bolder bidding than IMPS.

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If I finish quickly I can kibbitz the others and watch my IMP's change as they do better or worse
Why not take your time and play as well as you can instead of rushing? Look at the travellers *after* the tournament is over to look at how good players bid/play? There is no need to kibbitz in real time.

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To do this I need to get the "average" boards right, but I must also find something special where I can.
Is your goal to win tournaments by getting super lucky on a couple boards (i.e. play a wild high variance strategy, making weird bids no one else in the field is doing), or is it to actually get better at bridge? If you are terrible, I suppose going nuts looking for "something special" will get you some occasional wins when the card gods shine on you for these very short tournaments online which are crapshoots with few boards (+ IMP scoring effectively meaning even fewer boards that *matter*), few players, wide skill range, but playing this way does practically nothing to make you a better bridge player (except for experience playing bad contracts). It is not a viable strategy if you ever play bigger/more serious tournaments with more boards or transition to non-online bridge, and is not conducive to attracting good partners/teammates to want to play with you.

Good players don't really try to do special things. Mainly we try not to f* things up, and we have fairly high standards of what constitutes a f* up (some things we consider routine might seem "special" to a novice/int who don't recognize things as well). To win lower level tournaments just need to play well and get a bit of luck (mainly in opponents giving gifts, instead of fixes), not a series of miracles.


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Next, it's a best-hand tournament. So on this hand, I tried to imagine what North might have given what I had.
Best hand means your hand is *equal OR better* than partner's, and most often will be *better*. It doesn't mean partner's hand is going to be as good as yours. You should assume partner has a *worse hand* than yours until revealed otherwise. When partner opens and you have a 16 count, the expectation is partner has 12, not 16, because average hands (closer to 10) are more commonly dealt.

The point of bidding low, taking it slow, is so you can find out more exactly what partner has (and/or tell him what you have), without having to *imagine* what partner has. You bid slow, and give him room to tell, less guessing, stay at a lower level without risking your game and going down in 4nt or at the 5 level when there is a foul break or every finesse fails.

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I completely agree that in normal circumstances a Soloway jump shift is a stretch.With GIB if I bid 6NT as you suggest I am quite likely to end up in 7NTx-1: not a good outcome.
It's not just a stretch in terms of strength, it's completely wrong in hand type. You have a 3 suited hand and no idea which suit to play in. SJS should be solid one-suited, two-suited with support for partner, or semi-balanced 17+-19. No side suits other than partner's that you might want to play in. It would be wrong to bid 2d with 4441 even with 19 hcp.

The 6nt wasn't a serious suggestion of how to play with GIB. It was a criticism of your style of bidding, I have seen hands similar to this on your other posts where you inappropriately jump shift or deploy premature Blackwood with a strongish hand instead of taking it slow to find out more about partner's hand first, exactly which trump suit you want to play, find out partner's strength range, etc. Jump shifting instead of taking it slow on this hand is akin to just deciding after partner opens 1c that you want to bid 6nt and doing so (even if playing with a human rather than a robot who should prob just assume you are crazy and have given up on normal bidding and just pass rather than trying to interpret your hand as like exactly 20 hcp balanced and try to figure out when it's right to raise to 7nt).

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What I imagined was that North would have a solid Club suit for its bid and a little extra on the outside. Combined with my nice Hearts and Spades I figured 6NT was makeable even if the A was missing.
See that's one thing you miss out by jumping, you don't find out if partner has that "little extra" on the outside along with the solid clubs. You needed like the SK in addition, if partner had that additional card and solid clubs they'd bid 1c-1h-3c, but without that card bids only 2c. Then you can proceed to slam opposite the first sequence but not opposite the second. (You also miss finding if partner has 4+ fit with H/S/D, maybe you belong in a suit slam where you get extra tricks from ruffing, instead of 6nt).


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This was my reasoning for deliberately bidding Soloway (17+ total points). The layout was exactly what I expected it to be: Unfortunately, so was my card-play. Interestingly, although I lack the solid suit, I do have 19 total points - so there is that...
You should not be counting shortness points in suits partner bids, initially. This is because partner will often have wasted values opposite your stiff in his longer suits, and this causes a duplication of values. Like partner might have say KQJx clubs, and he is counting 6 hcp for 2-3 tricks, but you are also counting 3 points because of ruffing value. But the points don't really add here, because you have 2 winners and one loser out of this suit (if ace offside), which isn't really any different from KQJx opposite xxx, same if you didn't have a stiff. But if he is counting 6 and you are counting 3, in this suit you are counting 9, which is basically same as AKQx opposite xxx, where you expect 3 tricks with no losers, but in reality you have 2 tricks and 1 loser.


OTOH if partner has xxx clubs, if you also had xxx clubs you have 3 losers, but with stiff only one (assuming finding fit in other trump suit), and in addition partner's high cards are moved to where they remove losers in your other suits. If partner had say 2434 distribution, you'd much rather he has SK removing your losers in spades and DA promoting your cards, than having CK not really doing anything your stiff doesn't cover.

Now if the auction proceeds something like say 1c-1h-2h, if playing with a good human partner (GIB is hopeless and won't bid well on this sequence), you can bid 4c splinter showing short clubs, and if partner's high cards are outside of clubs, instead of having wasted CK/Q/J, removing losers from your side suits and trumps, then he can cooperate and you can reach a good low hcp slam (GIB doesn't handle these at all, you can splinter but it won't continue appropriately cooperating with good hands opposite the shortness and signing off with bad ones). But this can't happen if you start with 2D!
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#10 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2020-August-21, 01:13

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-August-20, 06:36, said:

... the hearts are a mirage ...

Pilowsky, South, declares 6NT, West leads K.
++++++++++++++++++++
A pretty variation, illustrating CyberYeti's point. :) Win A. Finesse Q. Finesse J, North's s squeeze East, in the reds, without the count.
A. If East discards 3 s then South's 5 becomes a trick.
B. If East discards 1 or 2 s then South's 7 becomes a trick.


C. If East discards his remaining 3 s (AQT), in an attempt to create an entry for West, then South throws 4 and retains a loser. Finally, in this 4-card ending, A strip-squeezes West. When West keeps 86, South exits in to end-play him.

Which opening lead defeats the contract? :)

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#11 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2020-August-21, 02:38

It is not surprising a low probability slam can make if the layout means four finesses work.
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#12 User is offline   Huibertus 

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Posted 2020-August-21, 05:39

Personally I don't like Soloway jumps at all, I hate it being part of the Robot convention card, it is an autopreempt and I'd rather preempt opponents on weak hands instead. But since it is on the connvention card, apply it in the right way, this hand does not qualify.

https://www.bridgebu...jump_shifts.php
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#13 User is offline   doccdl 

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Posted 2020-August-22, 02:13

Very humorously funny these dotard novice Robots.They forget to cash established tricks to defeat opponents contract shifting very cleverly to trumps taking away the two way guess for the Q.
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#14 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-August-23, 01:03

Thanks, everyone for your insightful comments. Extremely helpful as always.
I understand the point about Strong JS. Like or dislike, there is no point sitting in the passenger seat if you want to drive the car. As I am sure you do as well, I modulate my approach depending on my partner and the format I am playing.
When playing with robots I use whatever works best with robots. It isn't brain surgery.

I agree my bidding needs work: so does every other aspect of everything I do.

I was serious about the lesson - my Bridge teacher agrees with the 1 option so it's back to the drawing board for me.
Fortuna Fortis Felix
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