[mr1303]

---

North was a bot.

What do you do now?

[AL78]

mr1303, on 2020-September-18, 03:53, said:

---

North was a bot.

What do you do now?

It would have been better to conceal the North hand as I find it very difficult to give an objective answer when both hands are on view. Assuming I know nothing about the North hand, it is a guess between passing and bidding slam, and on the basis that North could have no aces , and if they hold one the slam could still be on a finesse, I would pass. I miss slam because North decided for some reason two aces opposite a game force opening bid isn't worth a positive response (if you are not going to make a positive response on this hand, you might as well take such bids off the convention card and always bid 2♦ relay).

It is difficult to find 7♥ after the opponents barrage, I'd be happy to find any making slam.

[nullve]

P

[shyams]

I too would pass as South

[FelicityR]

What I dislike about this hand is the 2♦ waiting bid and my partner being a robot.

Yes, we all know that the 2♦ waiting bid allows partner to describe their hand further, but it doesn't quite work here with the robot partner and the opponent's intervention. I don't play with robots but I would be horrified if a human partner couldn't bid 3♣ as North as a positive bid in reply to 2♣. Only very experienced partnerships might find the 7♥ contract here, but missing a small slam in ♣s or ♥s is plain nonsense.

A positive bid opposite a genuine 2♣ opener to me is 95% slam territory except if you have a horrendous misfit. North's hand has a decent six card ♣ suit and two ace controls and a void control. I admit it's probably not an easy auction if partner bids 3♠ over 3♣, but second guessing what sort of hand partner has for a 2♣ opener is just that.

The contract is already right-sided if you end up in a ♣ contract, and at least partner knows from the outset what sort of hand you have.

[Cyberyeti]

If I forgot to bid 3♣ first time, I'd probably bid 5N pick a slam over 4♠ (or 5♠), second choices X if takeout or 6♣, 5♣ would not occur to me

Partner didn't have to double over 3♠, he could pass so should only have 2 spades, in which case you have a 9 card fit somewhere or less likely 3 8s.

[mikeh]

Bidding with bots is not playing bridge.

However, in my partnerships (with two very strong expert partners) we’d happily respond 2D with the north hand. I think a 3C response is appalling.

Now, for us, 2D promises at least one Ace or King but more importantly we never bid anything but 2D (with an ace or king or better) with a complicated hand. Not only are our clubs too weak to bid 3C but we have two biddable suits and a great hand in the unlikely event that partner has diamonds as his primary suit.

Thus, although I don’t worry too much about bots, since their bidding algorithms are so awful, I’d start the auction just as posted, and be very comfortable doing so.

Over 4S, however, it would not occur to me to bid 5C.

Partner has at least 22hcp, with not much in spades, and support for the other 3 suits and I hold this hand? I have first round control in 3 suits plus a 6 card suit.

I’m torn between various options.

It’s impossible to be objective when one sees both hands, so I’m not convinced which option I’d pursue at the table.

4N, to show two places to play, intending to bid 5S over 5C, or 5H over 5D to show clubs and hearts. I suspect I’d reject this since my hearts are a tad short/weak, and 5H isn’t forcing.

Note that this approach means we’d miss hearts here. I don’t think we’d reach 7C, but it’s possible, and we rate to fail.

5S instead of 4N. Basically similar in intent, though partner would be forgiven for picturing a true 3-suiter. We show the spade void immediately but we’re in trouble if partner bids 6D.

5N, pick a slam. Similar to 4N, but we don’t promise the spade void and we’re stuck over a 6D call.

6C. This gets us to what must surely be a good contract while eliminating any realistic chance for 7H.

I think you ca see that reaching hearts is basically impossible. I also think that in real life, not seeing both hands, North wouldn’t worry too much about that. Also, on the auction, there is a greater than normal risk that hearts break badly, dooming 7H.

Doing the best I can, I think I’d probably bid 6C.


Also, btw, for all those protesting the 2D response, you’re kidding yourselves if you think that either partner is later showing a heart suit after 4th seat bids 3S and it’s partner bids 4S, so your protests are irrelevant.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2020-September-18, 08:21, said:

Also, btw, for all those protesting the 2D response, you’re kidding yourselves if you think that either partner is later showing a heart suit after 4th seat bids 3S and it’s partner bids 4S, so your protests are irrelevant.

Mike, what do you think the double shows rather than pass ? Presumably he can bid 3N with decent spades.

Is it any balanced hand with a doubleton spade ? Is it any hand with 4 hearts ? Is it any hand with a doubleton spade and 4 hearts ?

Would you double or pass with a 2353 hand ?

I don't play 2♦ waiting, I'm not sure where we end up, might also depend on the interference which might not be the same over 2♣-3♣ but I suspect will end in 6♣ maybe 7.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-September-18, 08:47, said:

Mike, what do you think the double shows rather than pass ? Presumably he can bid 3N with decent spades.

Is it any balanced hand with a doubleton spade ? Is it any hand with 4 hearts ? Is it any hand with a doubleton spade and 4 hearts ?

Would you double or pass with a 2353 hand ?

I don't play 2♦ waiting, I'm not sure where we end up, might also depend on the interference which might not be the same over 2♣-3♣ but I suspect will end in 6♣ maybe 7.

I don't play 2D waiting, either. Not sure what your point is. 2D waiting means it could be a very weak hand: I respond 2H with those.

Trump quality is important when playing slams in a 4-4 fit, especially when the opps are preempting, suggesting bad breaks.

The double of 3S, to me, is fairly ill-defined, other than being 'takeout'. Partner is expected to hold 1-2 spades. A void would be odd (and not merely because I hold a void....with most 5440 hands, partner should stretch to avoid 2C, which makes finding fits in the 4 card suits difficult)

One cannot wait to be have to hold 4 hearts in order to make a double of 3S...what does one do with 2=3=4=4 with Ax spades and say 24 hcp?

One cannot wait to hold KQJx in hearts either. What would you be doing if we showed you a South hand of Ax Kxxx AKQJ KQx? If you'd pass with that, add the rounded Jacks to become Ax KJxx AKQJ KQJ

As for bidding 3N, he'd need good but short spades, at least 2 stoppers (or one but 9 likely tricks). Also, if playing 2D waiting (a treatment I have played and learned to dislike intensely) 3N is a terrible gamble opposite xx xxxx xxxx xxx or such, so 3N should have at least 24 hcp or so, and 2+ spade stoppers or (alternatively) possibly a weaker hand in terms of hcp but a source of tricks: AQ Kx AKQxxx KQx would be typical. Make it (not opposite our north hand, obviously) Ax Ax AKQxxxx Ax and again 3N seems clear

Also, maybe you misunderstood the passage you quoted. I was discussing how the auction might go if north had responded 3C to 2C, and 4th seat had bid 3S. I won't believe (or, if I did, won't respect) anyone who claims they would double 3S for takeout. Not only is this now a penalty double, in my book, but even if it were not, who in their right mind would double for takeout when holding KQJx in partner's suit? What? Catering ONLY to partner holding an improbable 4 card heart suit of unknown quality?

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2020-September-18, 10:20, said:

I don't play 2D waiting, either. Not sure what your point is. 2D waiting means it could be a very weak hand: I respond 2H with those.

Trump quality is important when playing slams in a 4-4 fit, especially when the opps are preempting, suggesting bad breaks.

The double of 3S, to me, is fairly ill-defined, other than being 'takeout'. Partner is expected to hold 1-2 spades. A void would be odd (and not merely because I hold a void....with most 5440 hands, partner should stretch to avoid 2C, which makes finding fits in the 4 card suits difficult)

One cannot wait to be have to hold 4 hearts in order to make a double of 3S...what does one do with 2=3=4=4 with Ax spades and say 24 hcp?

One cannot wait to hold KQJx in hearts either. What would you be doing if we showed you a South hand of Ax Kxxx AKQJ KQx? If you'd pass with that, add the rounded Jacks to become Ax KJxx AKQJ KQJ

As for bidding 3N, he'd need good but short spades, at least 2 stoppers (or one but 9 likely tricks). Also, if playing 2D waiting (a treatment I have played and learned to dislike intensely) 3N is a terrible gamble opposite xx xxxx xxxx xxx or such, so 3N should have at least 24 hcp or so, and 2+ spade stoppers or (alternatively) possibly a weaker hand in terms of hcp but a source of tricks: AQ Kx AKQxxx KQx would be typical. Make it (not opposite our north hand, obviously) Ax Ax AKQxxxx Ax and again 3N seems clear

Also, maybe you misunderstood the passage you quoted. I was discussing how the auction might go if north had responded 3C to 2C, and 4th seat had bid 3S. I won't believe (or, if I did, won't respect) anyone who claims they would double 3S for takeout. Not only is this now a penalty double, in my book, but even if it were not, who in their right mind would double for takeout when holding KQJx in partner's suit? What? Catering ONLY to partner holding an improbable 4 card heart suit of unknown quality?

OK, don't understand this post AT ALL.

Quote

Thus, although I don’t worry too much about bots, since their bidding algorithms are so awful, I’d start the auction just as posted, and be very comfortable doing so.

so you said you WOULD start with 2♦ although a slightly different one. There is also a terminology issue for me, I call your sort of 2♦ "waiting" and the one that can be a bust as well "negative or waiting", hence my comment about 3N assuming there was a little opposite.

My point was that I couldn't really discuss the 2♦ waiting auction because I don't play it and have never played it, we play a straight negative 2♦ that can only be a bit better than normal if balanced so have to start with 3♣.

The impossibility of getting to hearts is because partner has a club fit, I can see getting there if partner is 2443, but the 2434 means that any "playable in 2 places" bids by either side find clubs.

[nullve]

mikeh, on 2020-September-18, 08:21, said:

4N, to show two places to play, intending to bid 5S over 5C, or 5H over 5D to show clubs and hearts. I suspect I’d reject this since my hearts are a tad short/weak, and 5H isn’t forcing.

Then why not bid 6♣ (say) instead of 5♥?

If NS were human experts playing basic/undiscussed 2/1, I'd expect the bidding to go something like

---

[Cyberyeti]

nullve, on 2020-September-19, 04:51, said:

Then why not bid 6♣ (say) instead of 5♥?

I'd expect one of 5N and 6♣ to be "I have a 6 card club suit and a 4 card heart suit to no more than one top honour" and the other to be the same for diamonds, but I'm not sure I'd know which was which without an explicit discussion.

If partner's hand is say Ax, Kxxx, AKQx, KQJ you want to play in clubs or NT not hearts, if he has ♦J you could be making 7♣/N but going off in 6♥ if they're 4-1. Imagine that with the reds reversed in both hands to see why you would want to recheck even with a known 4-4 diamond fit.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-September-19, 05:26, said:

I'd expect one of 5N and 6♣ to be "I have a 6 card club suit and a 4 card heart suit to no more than one top honour" and the other to be the same for diamonds, but I'm not sure I'd know which was which without an explicit discussion.

Now you’re simply making stuff up, to fit the actual hand.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2020-September-19, 09:36, said:

Now you’re simply making stuff up, to fit the actual hand.

What would you expect them to mean ?

Just to be clear, this is the auction I'm talking about, not the actual one you would get on this hand:

2♣-P-2♦-3♠
X-4♠-4N-P
5♦-P-5N/6♣

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-September-19, 10:23, said:

What would you expect them to mean ?

Just to be clear, this is the auction I'm talking about, not the actual one you would get on this hand:

2♣-P-2♦-3♠
X-4♠-4N-P
5♦-P-5N/6♣

I don’t have any trouble with the notion that 4N then 6C shows longer clubs than hearts, but to impose, as you did, the notion that it shows specifically one heart honour strikes me as implausible.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2020-September-19, 15:59, said:

I don’t have any trouble with the notion that 4N then 6C shows longer clubs than hearts, but to impose, as you did, the notion that it shows specifically one heart honour strikes me as implausible.

OK, it suggests a not very good heart suit is why I said that, it's suggesting that a 6-3 club fit might be a better place to play, you don't do it with AQJx, I said one TOP honour, ie one of AKQ not one honour.